Help With Ghost Flow Issue

Blank365

We had this system installed but we are getting a ton of ghost flow on all the baseboard zones. Can anyone pinpoint a fix by looking at this? The installer already added 3 additional flow check valves on the return side (even though they already have IFC in the circs) but that did not help.

The flow definitely happens when the DHW circ and boiler circ turns on but gets worse when the other zones also are on.

Boiler is set to 180 and DHW at 125.

The system was purchased like 10 years ago but just got installed.

Thanks

NY_Rob

Do you have a diagram or can you make a diagram of your system layout... something like the one below. It would make it much easier to troubleshoot.

hot_rod

looks like you have 3 zone pumps, pumping the return into the boiler?, are there checks installed in them?

Also incorrectly mounted pump up by the air purger, not sure what that is for?

I don't see any checks on the supply piping to the zones? Each one may need a check. Although that pump up top could be pumping all the zones when zone pumps are off?

Blank365

> @hot rod_7 said:
> looks like you have 3 zone pumps, pumping the return into the boiler?, are there checks installed in them?
>
> Also incorrectly mounted pump up by the air purger, not sure what that is for?
>
> I don't see any checks on the supply piping to the zones? Each one may need a check. Although that pump up top could be pumping all the zones when zone pumps are off?


Yes checks are installed on the 3 circulators. There are also additional ones installed on the same return side (can't see them in the photos) . There are no checks on the supply side.


The one up top is the main circulator for the boiler itself. Connected to the boiler aquastat. What do you mean incorrectly mounted? It can't go upside down like that?

DZoro

Agree with @hot rod_7 the pump that is upside down shouldn't be there. It has no real purpose from our view of your pics. There is a strong chance that it is pushing the water into your zones causing your ghost flow.
D

Blank365

The specific boiler install manual calls for a "System Circulator" perhaps that is only used when you have zone valves?

If I want to test this theory is it safe to just cut the power to that circulator without removing it?

DZoro

Well at least not the way you are piped. Not sure how much flow your boiler needs. Or if the individual zone pumps are able to supply the boiler with enough flow.
D

Blank365

Gotcha. I just checked it appears as if the aquastat never turns off the "system circulator" so it runs all the time. I find that odd I would expect it to turn off some of the time like when it reaches temp.

This is a bouderus G115 with the Honeywell l8148a aquastat set to 180.

I can't find much info in their flimsy 20 page install guide about how much water flow is needed.

I guess I can test that theory and disconnect the "system circulator" electrically unless anyone has any objections to that?

Blank365

The answer is no. Do not disconnect a "System circulator" without removing it.

Made a over pressure situation... Great thing for safety features.

hot_rod

I would more suspect the zone cirs on the return, pumping at the PONPC and possibly a fill valve open might cause excessive pressure. Stopping that one circulator, with zone circs running? Should not increase system pressure.

Hard to kn ow without seeing a complete piping layout.

Blank365

What do you mean by fill valve. I assume it's one of these?

Blank365

Any help on a potential fix?

Any idea how to deal with this installer? Who doesn't know not to install circs upside down?

They clearly didn't know what they were doing.. Should they be fixing it on their dime? Should I be negotiating a reduced rate and having someone else come fix it?

They already charged about $ in labor to this. (parts were already purchased)

clammy

From the looks of it they need to get a better grip on boiler piping .your using pumps for all zones the boiler does not need a pump unles up where piping it primary secondary .As others have stated u need check valves on your pumps and they should have been installed pumping away from your fill expansion tank connections. I used to install plently of buderus cast iron oil and gas boilers they are no different then any other hydronic boiler .from the looks of it they need to go to hydronic school and learn some more one more note stay on top of that indirect tank and make sure that the electric anode is plugged in and working and have the top opened once a year to de scale the coil and clean the tank . I couldn’t t see but a nice taco multi circ relay w hot water priority would be nice I usually get the expandable model this way up can update w outdoor reset .top notch boiler just needs a little piping tlc .another little side note I have the habit of always using circulator pumps w the check built in and always install a taco flow check on my return from my indirect stops thermal migration out of your tank to your piping especially durning the summer or if your heating w low temp emitters . If there’s real issues w ghost flow on the heating side and flow checks are installed on the supply w the pumps mounted on the supply also what I have done in lieu of adding a return check is pipe a thermal trap no moving parts and it works I used to make them about 30 inch long and pipe the,m below my return main and come up into the bottom . Easy and effective .i ran into these isssue a lot w multi zone baseboard systems who s homes had addition after addition after yet another addition miles of 3/4 copper crazy migration cycling indirect u get creative and use your bag of old time common sense tricks peace and good luckclammy

clammy

On a small side note there are still plenty of heating contractors who do not pump away nor follow any of the work habits that a lot of the contributors on this site do . That being said they always fall back on it always worked and I have been putting them in this way for what ever many years .Theres no advancing there way of doing it and some will say that’s the way it works and its normal. I would be amazed if he redid on his dime clammy

hot_rod

A drawing as Rob suggested may help clear this up, I can't tell from the pics exactly how it is piped.

It looks like an attempt at a primary secondary that morphed into a parallel piping and that is giving you the headaches. This happens occasionally we wrote a journal about piping concerns like this, i think yours is similar to 7-6a?

We put together Idronics 19 to show common piping mistakes that we see over and over, good reading for beginners and troubleshooters. And even seasoned pros

https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_19_na.pdf