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Advice on distribution manifolds

RetrosPex
RetrosPex Member Posts: 56
I'm new here, but have been reading posts for quite some time. This is a very informative site. In particular, I'm very interested in the debates of pumps versus zone valves. if you can force yourself to read the long explanation below, it will help a lot to understand my situation. I need advice...

I'm slowly setting up our ranch home in Iowa to convert from forced air to boiler. House is 1950's vintage 2400 sf on 1st floor, and about 1100 in basement. The rest of the basement is crawlspace, with smooth dirt floor. This house is very spread out for its size, and is shaped like a "Y". So, all sides of the house are "wings". Boiler installed is HTP Elite wall hung. It is either 140-150 kbtu. This boiler was purchased for a property we previously owned, but which suddenly sold. The boiler feeds a 80 gallon Boiler Buddy storage tank via 2" copper out top fittings on the boiler with Webstone air scrubber in that line. Pump is Grundfos 15-58 3 speed on B&G Checktrol flanges. Boiler feeds out bottom fittings to adjacent 45g domestic hot water tank, with 1" Wirsbo, and another Grundfos 15-58. Buffer tank is piped into top fittings for supply, returns on bottom fittings. Supply and return manifolds are 2" copper swaged manifolds with 1" takeoffs, set up with ball valves, and 1" Wirsbo adapters. At this time, the boiler is only making our domestic hot water, and we are ready to run supplies to heat zones and remove the forced air furnace. Buffer tank has not yet been pressurized. Original concept was to zone via circulators. Also left over from same former project is about 1/2 mile of Wirsbo HePex and Kitec Pex-AL-Pex in 1/2, 5/8" 3/4" and (3) Hydro Smart boiler integration panels. They are the 1" piped ones with all the purge valves, air eliminator, supply and return piping, etc. Should I even mention that I walked into Habitat for Humanity Restore and found 14 brand new EcoBee wifi thermostats for $20 each? Maybe I should open a hardware store....

Lately, I'm reading about zone valves becoming more reliable again, and have a friends who has used the Grundfos Alpha 2 with great success. Our concept was to locate pump panels that would be mounted at wings of the house, and run 1" HePex to furnace room to avoid all the home runs. The manual J heat load are roughly 68kbtu, but a large share of that is un-insulated crawlspace, which we will take care of. One bedroom/bathroom wing will have 3 zones, with both some underfloor plates, and panel radiators. The other bedroom wing will have the same number, plus 2 in-slab zones in the basement. The central core of the house will have several panel radiators, and a considerable amount of underfloor plates. One room in the central living core is 750 sf with over 250 sf of South facing glass.

I'm locked in analysis paralysis: I do not want to duplicate what I had in our last house, which was banks and banks of Grundfos pumps. I've already got a lot of over-kill in this system, due to advice from a friend who has fallen off the face of the Earth. I'm committed to the idea of the remote zone panels, and feeding the loops from that point. But with what? Sweat up fittings, and use a ZV? Buy a manifold from Caleffi or Uponor and use telestats, or just balance the loops, or use a actuator? Use TRV valves on the panel radiators? In most cases, it seems to me that it is worth buying a couple Grundfos Alpha pumps, and sell off the NIB pumps sitting on the shelf. A friend is heating a gigantic workshop extremely efficiently with those units, often only running 8-20 watts. I don't want to turn on 8-12 pumps that take at least 60 watts even on low speed. Frankly, I wonder why I even have the buffer tank. I'm questioning everything at this point.

My thought is this: put the (3) Hydro Smart panels near the loads, put the Grundfos Alpha 2's in the boiler room on the 1" takeoffs, use the EcoBee thermostats, or sell them, and start hooking up loads. But how, and with what?

Thank you so much for any help...



Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    It sounds like you will need two, maybe three temperatures? The load calc will indicate emitters requires, a design calc would give you supply temperature required to various emitters

    Vontr is really your choice I like Trvs on the panels if you want individual control

    Same with manifold choice, how much zone control do you want?

    Keep the buffer if you plan on micro zoning with the rads

    Pex to remote stations is fine, Use the Kitec for art projects or garden hose😳
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • RetrosPex
    RetrosPex Member Posts: 56
    hot rod: thank you for the comments. Based on the heat loads, the plan is to not exceed 130 degree water to any zone. I'd like to go even lower if possible. Due to the architecture of the house (very unique) I'm trying to somewhat oversize the panel radiators so they visually match up better to the windows they will be under. The approach should work well with lower temps too. As for slabs, I was planning on about 80-90 degrees, and for underfloor about 100-110. It might be possible to get down to 2 temps, and just run most of the system at 120.

    What is "Vontr"? I'm not familiar with that. As for micro-zoning: this is bone of contention for us: the guy who started the design insists on a thermostat in every single room. I think that is massive overkill, especially when you use all circulators for it. We set our temperature, and change it once per year. In the summer. We heat to 68, cool to 74. I see no reason to put two identical bathrooms, (72 sf each) next to each other on separate zones, for example. A TRV, sure. Or maybe just a manual manifold adjustment.

    As for Kitec.....there was a big class action lawsuit. Based on what I have read, it was a problem with the fittings themselves: too much zinc in them, or something like that. I'm not aware of any issues with the tubing itself. I used it for 15 years, under almost constant load in a high heat condition and had zero problems. I never experienced any fitting issues either. But, others certainly did. I would not bury any Kitec in a slab though, or in a wall. Staple up? Probably because I have about 5 rolls left that I bought for next to nothing. I'd make sure no compression fittings were in any place I could not see them.

    Thanks!
  • RetrosPex
    RetrosPex Member Posts: 56
    One other question: is there any problem with putting the pump on the supply manifold of the buffer tank, and pumping from there to the remote distribution panels? Those would be 15', 35', and 40' from the tank, and run out with 1" HePex.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    RetrosPex said:

    hot rod: thank you for the comments. Based on the heat loads, the plan is to not exceed 130 degree water to any zone. I'd like to go even lower if possible. Due to the architecture of the house (very unique) I'm trying to somewhat oversize the panel radiators so they visually match up better to the windows they will be under. The approach should work well with lower temps too. As for slabs, I was planning on about 80-90 degrees, and for underfloor about 100-110. It might be possible to get down to 2 temps, and just run most of the system at 120.

    What is "Vontr"? I'm not familiar with that. As for micro-zoning: this is bone of contention for us: the guy who started the design insists on a thermostat in every single room. I think that is massive overkill, especially when you use all circulators for it. We set our temperature, and change it once per year. In the summer. We heat to 68, cool to 74. I see no reason to put two identical bathrooms, (72 sf each) next to each other on separate zones, for example. A TRV, sure. Or maybe just a manual manifold adjustment.

    As for Kitec.....there was a big class action lawsuit. Based on what I have read, it was a problem with the fittings themselves: too much zinc in them, or something like that. I'm not aware of any issues with the tubing itself. I used it for 15 years, under almost constant load in a high heat condition and had zero problems. I never experienced any fitting issues either. But, others certainly did. I would not bury any Kitec in a slab though, or in a wall. Staple up? Probably because I have about 5 rolls left that I bought for next to nothing. I'd make sure no compression fittings were in any place I could not see them.

    Thanks!

    Make that zone control.
    Search the web for failures of that tube , it has issues other than fitting electrolysis. bubbles, splits,internal collapse why risk it if you have other options.
    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5547c54be4b055514bd42fc6/t/584973fa20099ed16a29fc13/1481208872423/Kitec+Main1.jpg?format=1000w
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Canucker
  • RetrosPex
    RetrosPex Member Posts: 56
    Wow, I have never seen anything like that! well, made in China, what can you say......

    Okay, I'll for-go the use of that. Thanks for the heads up! Other than that project for Kitec, I've just used Wirsbo Pex A.