History of Oil Tank Installation Permitting

TomasDelSol

How far back should I be able to see a record of an oil tank installation? There is no record of mine at the fire department and I'm wondering if that's because no one pulled one or because it just wasn't required before a certain date. I live in Western Massachusetts.

Brewbeer

This is in reference to underground tanks, correct?

Many of the smaller towns in western mass didn't keep underground tank records until the 70s or 80s. The bigger cities are better, Springfield for example has tank records that go back to the 1920s.

What town do you live in and how old is your house? It was not at all uncommon for underground tanks to get installed at residential houses without any records. Also, some towns have lost their records to floods, fires, and carelessness.

Attached are some photos of how tank records are kept in the City of Springfield. Black means installations, red means removals.

Leonard

In NH , Dad built our house in ~ 1958 , I see oil tank outlet pipe has an aluminum strip with a hand stamped numbers on it . It's tied onto that pipe with a copper wire. Those numbers are likley the city inspection or permit #. Still original furnace , never needed to check city records

Aluminum tag look's similar to one I've seen city inspector put on a large compressed air tank in a car garage.

TomasDelSol

I'm in Monson. The house was originally built in 1932 but there have been at least two additions through the years.

There is an old oil line coming up through the cement next to the boiler that's been cut off and rolled down to seal it. I'm in the process of selling the house and the old line is creating concern that there was an underground tank. So we're trying to track down information about the current tank with hopes that it will lead to information about what was there before.

Unfortunately the adjacent room where the old line seems to head has been finished with a framed wood floor on top of the concrete so I can't follow the path without tearing things up.

The buyers called the town but say they didn't have much luck; I'm going to go down tomorrow and ask in person. They've been great when I've dealt with them so hopefully I'll have better luck. I've been told that some records were lost in the tornado. Which just makes everything even more gray.

Brewbeer

A fuel line buried in concrete between a basement above ground tank and heating equipment was pretty standard practice up until about 30 years ago. Since concrete can corrode copper, it is recommended that fuel lines in concrete be abandoned, and a new, sleeved oil line installed over the top of the floor, or overhead, between the tank and the heating equipment.

The presence of what you describe does not necessarily mean there is a buried tank outside. It could just be an old line from an inside tank.

TomasDelSol

Right. And the current line IS sleeved. So it's possible that the old line went to the same place as the current tank. I think the home inspector suggested that possibility to the buyer even though it looks to me like it heads in a different direction.

I am pretty confident that there's no underground tank but I understand the buyer's concern. At this point I'm trying to prove a negative and that's a nightmare.....

I appreciate the feedback by the way......

Intplm.

I feel your concern. I just went threw the same thing.
In order to sell the house the potential buyers want to see some proof that the tank is no longer in the ground. Or that the tank isn't leaking or hasn't leaked.
Soil tests are done to check for ground contamination.
The thing is, some towns did not require permits for removing a tank until, I think.......the late 80's or early 90's ?

As you say. Trying to prove a negative.

If the one on one with the town doesn't help, your realtor should be able to set up a soil test to give the buyers some peace of mind.
Hope this helps. Best of luck.

Leonard

Seems could scan path of copper line just like they do with outdoor underground power and phone wires. Should point you in direction the line goes , with any luck line will stop where tank was before you get to outside wall. Maybe chile down and find end of copper line.

If line goes outside might be too deep for RF signal , unless line was still attached to a tank. Have to check on that, some detectors go deeper than others

They work by putting RF transmitter around the wire, then hand held wand receiver gives depth and location of the wire. would guess they will work with un-insulated bare copper tubing too

EBEBRATT-Ed

I am about 15 miles from Monson. In 1932 in Monson I doubt there are any records of a tank dating back that far...small town.

Maybe you can get someone with a metal detector scan around the house

Intplm.

A accepted test method is to drill with a long drill bit into the soil near and around a plotted area that had once been suspected of having a buried tank. Those soil test samples are sent to a lab to test for the presents of soil contaminants.
The drilling is also looking for the buried tank.

Brewbeer

Due diligence is the buyer's responsibility in this part of Massachusetts. As long as you have honestly disclosed as much information as you know and have access to, its' the buyer's decision if they want to spend money on professional to do scans or drilling or testing.

JUGHNE

I located an abandoned oil tank by accidently driving an 8' ground rod thru it....it was pretty thin on top.... and bottom....both tank and rod are still there.
Anything in it would have drained out, this was 35 years ago, no concern at that time by anyone.

More recently here the basement wall straightener company drilled a Deadman anchor thru an abandoned UG oil tank that still had the sludge in it. This followed the anchor and went into the basement. Major cleanup by wall company.
They by now, will realize that most +60 year old houses were heated by oil and tanks abandoned in place.
This one still had the copper tubes coming in thru the wall and the fill and vent showing outside.....now you could say "Can't fix stupid".

One more, another electrician told me that someone removed their UST and the copper lines and then the lights went out in the house. Seems the neutral wire was lost and the copper lines and tank were acting as ground/neutral return.

So considering the 2nd story above I understand the concern for tank records. Of which there are none at all here.

TomasDelSol

Due diligence IS the buyer's responsibility! But I'd prefer if the deal didn't fall through so I'm willing to do some legwork. Unfortunately I'm not sure what will appease the buyer.

I went to the fire department and the admin person was already very familiar with my situation. Unfortunately they have nothing in their system about it so it will require some time and legwork for them to search the old paper records. I'm guessing there won't be a record of anything there.

I did chip out some cement to confirm where the fuel line goes. It leads under a wall and beneath the wood framed floor of a finished area of the basement. I ran a steel wire down it to see how far it goes (9', not far enough to reach any exterior wall).

I pulled my metal detector out of storage but that wasn't terribly helpful. I'm going to run a copper wire down the line and see if I can get a better signal through the plywood and carpet.

I called a company that locates oil tanks and they quoted me $1,200. Which doesn't work. I could rip up and replace the floor for a fraction of that price.

I spoke to the son of the previous owner and the local oil folks; any plumber or burner guy who may have ever worked on the boiler and tank have since passed away. If they even kept records they are gone.

It's pretty clear to me that 20 years ago there was an oil tank in the basement. They pulled it out to finish off a large area and put a new tank in a different location. They surely didn't envision someone down the road wondering where the old fuel line goes and didn't see the need to rip it out.

So let this be a lesson to all a' yez.... if you relocate an oil tank, rip up that old fuel line!!!!

Brewbeer

If they moved the oil tank when they finished the basement, they may have also moved the fill and vent pipes. You can look for the old fill/vent penetrations in the house side wall where the old tank use to be located.

TomasDelSol

Unfortunately there are no signs of old fill/vent pipes. I looked. A couple of realtors looked. I imagine the home inspector looked. The house has been added on to so they may have reinforced or prettied up parts of the foundation and covered the old penetrations up. Or the old pipes may have gone through the side of the house where an addition was added.

The fire department came up empty. So now it's up to the buyer to decide if they'll take the risk. Or I can rip up the finished floor to see where the old line goes. Or I can pull up the old line where it's visible, patch it over and wait for another buyer. But that doesn't feel ethical to me. Not to mention what happens if someone new goes digging around and they find out there was an old line that I covered up. And at this point I kind of want to know myself.... that alone could be worth the small hassle of cutting up and replacing "some" plywood.

TomasDelSol

Pictures are worth a thousand words... Old line to the right of the burner with a wire shoved down it. I broke out the cement above the line to the right of the boiler to see where it went and it goes under the framed wall into the finished room on the right.

Brewbeer

The tank would have been located on an outside wall at least 10 feet away from the burner.

Leonard

Lot of work but could probe the yard in a 1 or 1.5 ft grid looking for the tank. I've found I can work a 1/2 inch 8 ft lightning rod down just by hand raming it ..eventually .

Hit the tank and get a "thud" or entry into a void

too much work though, got ground penetrating radar?

TomasDelSol

Do you think Home Depot rents ground penetrating radar guns? Ha ha....

I am going to cut the floor and trace the line in the next couple of days. That seems to be the easiest solution. The carpet tiles are only tacked down on the edges with double sided tape so those will be easy to reinstall. And plywood is plywood. And once I reach the end I'll have a good idea of what was there before. I think.

Intplm.

For the amount of sweat equity your putting in. You might just want to hire a company that does this type of work. It will probably be less expensive and they will be seen as a credible third party reporting the findings.

TomasDelSol

It is pure speculation that there is an underground tank in the first place. It's just a thought because there is an old fuel line. So I couldn't point to a specific location for someone to look for one. I contacted one company who quoted me $. And if they don't find a UST I doubt they would give a guarantee that there isn't one. So I'd rather spend a couple hours cutting and replacing plywood.

Intplm.

Good thinking.
Best of luck to you. Hope it doesn't turn into a big thing like mine did.

kevink1955

Another thought, underground tanks around here are 2 pipe systems, you only have 1 pipe. Has anyone seen single pipe underground tank, is 2 pipe a local thing ?

Leonard

Too bad it's too dangerous to wear rubber boots , attach 120V power to the line , and scan path of line with one of those voltage sensors they have for wall wiring.

Might look into getting one of those guys that trace underground wiring in your yard with RF transmiter around the wire and scan the yard . Seen those fascy pro units say wire is ~ 4 ft down

TomasDelSol

Things are not looking good. The line went along the surface of the concrete for a few feet and then dove underneath and runs under the concrete pretty much to the back of the house.

I used my metal detector in back of the house and got some strong signals. I dug a few 18" deep holes in back of the house and didn't hit anything. I'm guessing I was getting signals from metal in the concrete.

So it's possible the old tank was removed and the line was left behind. Or there's a tank somewhere away from the house.

Now I'm waiting to hear back from the fire department about the proper procedures, who can start digging, who needs to be around for that, etc. Fun fun.

Brewbeer

Anyone can dig. If a tank is found, you need to get a permit from the fire department to remove it. Fire department needs to be present during the removal.

Here are a couple of photos of what the interior connections to an exterior underground oil tank look like after they penetrate the foundation wall:

Ignatz

I use to have a helium tester to find "leaks" at gas stations.
Lets say you have a line leak at a large gas station with 10 dispensers. I drain all the lines back to the tank, and then add helium from the submersible pump back to the dispensers.
A large leak is easy to locate, but even small leaks show up in about an hour or two.
Once the helium tester senses helium...the machine goes nuts!

On your line situation...I would put a line tester on the line to see if its tight, slightly leaking or showing an "open" end.
If the line is tight, no helium will find anything. Start tracing the line back yourself.
If the line is loosing pressure, then I would do a helium test. Helium rises and alarms a hand held sensor.
Sorry, but I was part of the $1,200 search.
Helium is awesome to find even a small leak, but if that line is not leaking, helium will not work.

Also as a "past" certified line tester, I could easily verify a 10' x3/8" line with my Petrotite line tester. Just how the tester reacted to such a small line would be easy for me to verify.....if the line was tight. At that point, I could only put my findings on a letterhead explaining what I found.

If the line is not tight...….helium. Will a helium tester find the location of a small leak 3' down in the dirt? Yup, helium rises.
Might take 1-2 hours.
Sorry again for the $1,200 response from a "past" certified PA. Underground Storage tank inspector.
Be careful digging.

Intplm.

Depending on your towns building codes, the building inspector/building department, fire marshal and local wet lands could all be involved. Best to start at the building department to find out what the local rules and regs are.

Another thought. If this isn't a concern of a potential buyer then there may not be a need for all of this.

Gsmith

Try ground penetrating radar scan of the yard to locate any possible tank, if results are negative, you have the report as evidence. Should take just a day, you'll have to get local prices.

Brewbeer

Sub-Surface GPR Informational Survey in East Longmeadow is $1,200 for 4 hours. (413) 525-4666 It's not perfect, but they get it right about 90% of the time.

Leonard

Here in NH if remove a gasoline underground tank, they take soil samples under tank to determine if it leaked. Liekly same with heating oil. If leaked state will likely want you to drill 3-4 wells down to water table to test for water flow direction and oil contamination under the whole property. Results get forwarded to state, you might be documenting your liability to fix all of your contamination that flowed to neighbors properties also. $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Think house insurance policies now days exclude liability for that. Think old ones didn't, but likely a statue of limitations on making claims against them.

Might be better not knowing and finding a cash buyier who doesn't need tank documentation for bank loans.

TomasDelSol

Here's the latest in this ongoing saga.....

I determined the fuel line extends to the outside wall of the foundation.

While heading to the Fire Dept to see what my next move should be I saw my neighbor who is a homebuilder; I realized I should have asked him to begin with. He remembers (with detail) that an underground tank was removed, remembered the excavator and remembered the fire dept came to supervise and approve.
Which is great except there is still no paper trail.

Fire dept said if there's no tank then it's my property and I can dig as I please.

So my plan is to dig outside along the foundation to find the end of the fuel line. My concern now is if someone comes on behalf of the buyer (like a licensed site professional)... am I potentially opening up a new can of worms since there is no paper trail.

Brewbeer

Does he remember the date the tank was removed? There currently is a requirement to "measure for the presence of contamination" when an underground tank is removed, but that currently requirement didn't always exist, it came into place about 25 years ago.

TomasDelSol

It was removed about 18 or 20 years ago. It was after 1995, that much is certain. This guy is sharp and very matter of fact in general not to mention that he remembered details he couldn't have made up. So I believe everything he says.

My concern is that there is no record of the removal. So someone could suggest it wasn't removed properly. And I really have no idea if there could even be an issue with the soil. But before I start digging I want to know what I might be getting myself into.

Intplm.

Don't dig. At least not until you have exhausted all possibilities.
This all recently happened to me last summer.
Work with your realtor. (or have you done that already) Look for all areas of documentation. Fire departments are supposed to fill out log sheets and make reports.
If no report was filed than why did they supervise/attend the tank removal.

If you have a realtor than that is your best bet.

If you do not have "certified documentation by a governing authority" the arguments from potential buyers will be there wether you like it or not.

They can argue that the tank is not where you have, or will be doing your digging.

So. Don't dig. You will be viewed as a biased party to any home that you are trying to sell. Sadly you probably will not be taken on your word if selling to strangers.

TomasDelSol

Unfortunately we have exhausted all possibilities (that I can think of). The fire department has had various incidents that caused them to lose records. We have written into our agreement that if I expose the end of the fuel line then we are good to close.

My concern is if they bring a licensed 3rd party along to verify the line will that person take an interest above and beyond the scope of the sale.

Intplm.

Ok. So you should get some type of documentation from the fire department stating that at the very least that there records have been destroyed.

The third party being a private home inspector?
That inspector, while working for a potential buyer is, in a way, working for you too. At least in this case.
The inspector should help in any concerned discovery.
Since you have written into your agreement that you need only expose the end of the fuel line. Well that should help with the sale in your favor because you are demonstrating a show of "good faith"in doing so.

Best of luck in your sale. I understand all too well how stressful it can be.
Seems like things should turn out fine.

TomasDelSol

The 3rd party is a LSP (Licensed Site Professional) who is basically a private representative of the DEP. So I'm not sure if I'll potentially be subjecting myself to soil samples. Not that it should be an issue if the removal was done properly the first time, but it was 20 years ago so I'm not sure if standards have changed or just what I might be exposing myself to. So I'm just trying to understand what I might be facing.

Leonard

Realators may work for other side or both sides, YOUR lawyer works for YOU.

If you want to be certain I'ld talk to a lawyer to add wording to sales agreement close off any legal liability if there is soil contamination. Might be able to do it in a general wording way so that it won;t be obvious it's talking about oil.

But having delt with lawyers they will likely recommend something like ground penetrating radar to look for a tank. And a full soil contamination investigation by a licensed soils engineer ( Cival PE) . This will likely include digging several 2 inch wells with a drill on back of a pickup truck. Taking water samples and water depth to determine which direction underground water flows. GUESSING $1K for radar, 1-2K for sampling depending on costs in your area.

Likely more of an issue if don't have city water and you or neighbors relie on well water.

CLamb

Have you checked to see if the County or the State have copies of the records?