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New lochivar noble combi setup

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plumbbob
plumbbob Member Posts: 19
Just want to get some feed back on install

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  • plumbbob
    plumbbob Member Posts: 19
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    Looking for some feed back
    Adolfo2
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,443
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    Looks neat and clean. Only thing I would say is that a less than desirable place to discharge of the condensate...just about the middle of the floor.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
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  • DZoro
    DZoro Member Posts: 1,048
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    Very nice!
    What size is that one?
    What max water temp are you designed for?
    Is the steel gas pipe going into the concrete?
    Are you using a well for the boiler supply sensor?
    D
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,266
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    Is the Taco box a LWC? If so, it seems low in the piping. Maybe more support for the exp tank? Good to see back flow vent port piped down. Nice copper work.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    BoilOver2
  • DZoro
    DZoro Member Posts: 1,048
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    BTW , Very nice soldering!
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 888
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    I see the same thing the others pointed out, but REALLY service friendly and CLEAN.

    Well done!

    I remember the first time someone pointed out to me the low water had to be at the least above the HX, it cost me some dough to repair. Is there a port on top of the boiler to put it?
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • plumbbob
    plumbbob Member Posts: 19
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    Boiler is piped in attic so all feeds coming from below taco is l. W. C. Now realize it should be higher tech support say P. V. C. Is fine for this install ( I called to make sure) unit is heating a warehouse and for the condensate that's the only discharge and system sensor wasn't strapped on yet thanks for the critique!
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
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    PVC venting is strange issue. While boiler manufacturers ok it, pvc pipe manufacturers do not ok it. Liability is yours. This is a good reading:

    801.20 Plastic Vent Joints. Plastic pipe and fittings used to vent appliances shall be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s installation instructions.

    Section 802 Vents

    802.1 General. All vent systems shall be listed and labeled.

    There is no listing for PVC piping for flue gas venting applications.

    The 2009 IMC also has the following language:

    Section 304 Installation

    304.2 Conflicts. Where conflicts between this code and the conditions of listing or the manufacturer’s installation instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply.
    plumbbob
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    @gennady Could you clarify your comment on the "no valve between the LWCO and the boiler"? I don't see how an isolation valve in any piping has to do with safety and a probe type LWCO. If a valve is closed on these boilers or any like them, they are going to shut down via 3 or 4 different temperature safeties.
    Steve Minnich
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited January 2019
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    Low water cut off is there to protect boiler. If there is a valve on line between lwco and boiler, this valve can be closed and lwco will not see low water conditions at the boiler, and will not be able to shut boiler down. Valve defeats the purpose of lwco.
    Brewbeerrick in Alaska
  • AMG63
    AMG63 Member Posts: 15
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    @Gennady
    What do you mean by why zone valves?
    Aren't zone valves a pretty efficient way of running one of these systems? 24v vs 110v for zone pumps??

  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited January 2019
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    In my opinion there few issues with using zone valves with high efficiency boilers.
    1. Boiler usually sized for design conditions, that’s full load at pretty low outdoor temperatures. At normal outdoor temperatures boiler works at 30-50% of the load, if zone valves are used and there is no call for heat for all of them, except one or 2, it makes load even smaller and boiler works below minimum allowable load, starts short cycling. We all know shortcycling is not good for boiler.
    2. Boiler working on outdoor reset has low outlet water temperature. If zone was off and area is cold, it will take hours before space will get heated to set point temperature.
    There other things, like pumping issues,but let’s stop at these 2
  • plumbbob
    plumbbob Member Posts: 19
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    for the record there's no valve before lwc also there's a split ring hanger supporting the expansion tank,hard to see in photo but my next install ill add lwc on top off boiler where relief valve is and drop relief valve down onto header
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,055
    edited January 2019
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    Very, very nice! I like your service valves on each component.

    I like to pipe a bypass around the PRV for fast filling and purging.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    plumbbob
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Excellent job, and nice soldering always looks professional.

    I see the pipe hanger supporting the x tank off the pipe behind which is well supported.

    The LWCO technically should be at the high point. However with that boiler it’s a pretty redundant component like @Steve Minnich points out. Low pressure, high limit ect. On these mod/ con, and combis. They have their place on ci boilers with less lockout features. Codes still require them in some jurisdictions.

    As far as zoning. So long as the smallest zone is more load than the lowest modulation output it’s not a huge issue. Maybe on milder days in shoulder seasons.

    PVC. There is plenty of discussion here on that. Let’s not open that one again......
    kcoppplumbbob
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited January 2019
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    I’m not trying to trash you work. You asked for critique. Critique is good, it is a way to improvement.

    Here is my opinion.

    Expansion tank filled with water is heavy, it must be supported and not present load for connecting piping. Meaning, if you cut connecting pipe, tank will not fall on the floor. Just my opinion.
    Something like that.

  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited January 2019
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    Zoning. In NYC design conditions 11F (lately listed as 15F but I still use 11) When I do heat loss I also check 50F load. So, at 50F load is most of the times about 30% of design condition load. Turndown ratio for most of the boilers today is 5 -5.5. Then minimum stable load is 18-20%. If you have 2 equal zones, how you suppose to be above threshold with only 1zone working? If zones are not equal, it is even worse. What about 3 or more zones? What about zone after it been off for a while and need pick up with low water temperature?

    PVC piping is a real health issue and codes specifically put pvc in no no area. PVC is not labeled and not listed for venting with listing agencies. That puts end to their use.

    Just my opinion.
    Gordy
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    The uni strut tank brackets are always better.

    As far as zoning. There are plenty of 10:1 tdr boilers out now. Buys you a little wiggle room. I'm not a zoning fan either, but people like to micro manage their environment. If that's what they want then there is the buffering tactic to help manage cycling also. Lowest modulation you can go at the 10:1 low end is about 8k.

    Maybe someday there will be micro boilers that get real low, and you get as many as you need to stage to meet the top load.

    Or we get into a higher tdr 15:1.
  • Adolfo2
    Adolfo2 Member Posts: 32
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    Is that a drain/flush valve mounted to the Y strainer under the LWCO?
    That just allows you to drain the system at that point... you still need to disassemble the filter in order to clean it?
    plumbbob
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited January 2019
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    @Gordy Here comes fundamental issue. Are we "yes" people to client, or we tell client "this is how it will be"? Are we just doing job, even if we know it is wrong, because client wants it to be done certain way? At the end who is responsible for comfort and effective system operation? Half of our work comes after yes-man jobs is done.


    Buffer tanks with high efficiency boilers are nonsense in my opinion. With buffer tank no need to spend all money on high efficiency boiler.
    SuperTech
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    @grennady - Could you explain why the use of buffer tanks with mod cons is nonsense? I think it’s the exact opposite of nonsense.
    Steve Minnich
    SuperTech
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited January 2019
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    @SteveMinnich. In my opinion modulating boilers are matching firing rate to the actual load. Buffer tank serves as a buffer ( hahaha) between load and boiler in order to remove direct link between boiler and load. Installation of buffer tank defeats purpose of modulation.

    Just my opinion.
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited January 2019
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    I’ll agree that it’s an additional expense but also a necessity. People want zones and usually many more than makes sense. If they’re insistent upon that, then I would be insistent on the buffer tank. Or a mod con that has mass.
    Steve Minnich
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    As far as zoning the client should be informed of the penalties zoning can have, and if they still want it so be it. We live in an era people are infatuated with control.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,266
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    I feel it is the designer or contractors job to make a system work properly. Our industry has sold hydronics as infinitely zoneable for ultimate comfort. We have the technology to make any system workable, even micro zoned installations.

    Present the options and $$ to your customers.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    I understand what @gennady is saying. Why add more bells, and whistles aka buffering etc. at a higher cost to the owner. If the owner wants zoning then it is up to the designer, and installer to come up with a working efficient system for that I agree.

    I’m not a big fan of zoning. Adds cost, and I’m a one temp kinda person all around the house. Some people are not I get that.

    Here is what happens all to often. Owner wants zoning. Installer A gives the premium system with an efficiency work around to the best the system can be. Explains to the owner all about the efficiency hits he’s trying to eliminate. With deer in head lights by owner.
    Installer B says you don’t need all that, and still gives zoning. The installer B gives what the owner wants at a considerably lower price than installer A. Owner is happy. Cheaper price, and zoning. Who gets the job?
    plumbbob
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    I was usually more than willing to walk away from those who couldn't see the value in doing things the right way.

    Low water content mod cons with microzoning and no buffer tank is not the right way.
    Steve Minnich
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2019
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    I know, but you understand where I’m going with this. B gets the job, and the owner eventually ends up here, and hydronics gets a bad rap...........I know the owner got what they paid for.
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    I understand. It’s a frustrating, never-ending process.
    Steve Minnich
  • plumbbob
    plumbbob Member Posts: 19
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    gennady said:

    I’m not trying to trash you work. You asked for critique. Critique is good, it is a way to improvement.

    Here is my opinion.

    Expansion tank filled with water is heavy, it must be supported and not present load for connecting piping. Meaning, if you cut connecting pipe, tank will not fall on the floor. Just my opinion.
    Something like that.

    thanks gennedy i could have supported tank much better also i added valves and drains for isolation if i had to clean out system
  • jrkeat
    jrkeat Member Posts: 71
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    Gennady, you wrote "Minimum 18" --what was the problem there? Also, do you need an external low water sensor if you already have an internal sensor?
  • Wellness
    Wellness Member Posts: 143
    edited March 2020
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    Very nice work, especially the soldering. The only thing that has not yet been suggested that I can think of is a bypass PVC drain on the condensate line before the filter in case the filter gets clogged. You could do it at that bottom 90 with a tee just below the gas line.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
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    H
    jrkeat said:

    Gennady, you wrote "Minimum 18" --what was the problem there? Also, do you need an external low water sensor if you already have an internal sensor?

    Minimum 18” from any fitting before and after closed coupled tees is necessary to exclude influence between primary and secondary loops. To provide good hydrolic separation.

  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 845
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    A horizontal orientation of the Y-strainer would be more effective.
    I would also like to see an ECM circulator like an Alpha.
    Really nice soldering job!
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,266
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    I don't see an air separator?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,187
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    > @hot_rod said:
    > I don't see an air separator?

    I spotted a spirovent or a supervent in the first picture.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,633
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    @gennady
    IPEX specifically makes PVC pipe marked and approved for venting, at least they did the last time I looked. MA has talked about outlawing it but hasn't yet

    Valves are not allowed between the HX and the LWCO

    Massachusetts is pretty strict there are plenty of Mod Cons that were installed before the inspectors caught wise that the boiler MFGs didn't want LWCOs installed, claimed they were not necessary because they had flow switches, sensors etc. They are required in MA now and have been for a while
    gennady
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
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    uote" rel="EBEBRATT-Ed">@gennady
    IPEX specifically makes PVC pipe marked and approved for venting, at least they did the last time I looked. MA has talked about outlawing it but hasn't yet

    Valves are not allowed between the HX and the LWCO

    Massachusetts is pretty strict there are plenty of Mod Cons that were installed before the inspectors caught wise that the boiler MFGs didn't want LWCOs installed, claimed they were not necessary because they had flow switches, sensors etc. They are required in MA now and have been for a while
    NYC code do not allow pvc venting.