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Thermostat hook up for indirect DHW system

cnmdesign
cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
edited October 2018 in Domestic Hot Water
Re posted from the wall

Just a few more items to finish and my new system will be ready for commissioning.

Need some help hooking a thermostat to my 4 zone, zone valve control box.
If you can, please provide detailed instructions including color and type of wire, need to connect the two units listed below.

https://www.ecomfort.com/manuals/alliancesl_io_manual.pdf
and
https://file.ac/qhPkptLqjwo/Sage Zone Control Valve Panel Instruction Sheet.pdf

Circulation is provided by an Alpha2 ECM.

Thanks
Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
www.afinalsalute.com

Comments

  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
    Sure, no problem, my 40+ plus years of experience and hundreds of hours of factory training classes should be free, eh?

    So what do you do for a living?
    Larry Weingarten
  • You're asking for something you already have - see page 2 of the Sage Zone Control manual.

    The color of the wires is up to you.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited October 2018
    GBart said:

    Sure, no problem, my 40+ plus years of experience and hundreds of hours of factory training classes should be free, eh?

    So what do you do for a living?

    Gee Bart, since you asked.

    Retired combat Vet 75-95. Ten in the Marines and then Ten in the Army. After I retired I worked for the Longaberger company for another 22 years till they went out of business, as a Master Weaver.

    Basket is made in slow motion for the benefit if viewer.



    Here are some other baskets.

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1VSNC_enUS582US582&biw=1120&bih=745&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=l_XYW8CuBYmzjwT225zgCA&q=longaberger++baskets&oq=longaberger++baskets&gs_l=img.12..0l10.30629.30629..38120...0.0..0.103.103.0j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.FKORkSE2qyM

    Worked for piece rate pay. No work, no pay, every second cost money. One day I wove up 74 baskets in 8 straight hours not varying more than 4 seconds on each basket, with no breaks. Pretty much every day was like that. Had to stand on one leg all day while holding the basket with the other leg a foot of the ground to keep the basket from spinning on the form.

    Now I own my own LLC.

    I went to Iraq with the 101st Air Assault. If you have seen Black Hawk down, I did the part where they slide down the rope out of a Black Hawk, (something I'm sure you have done lots of times).
    When not in combat, I specialized in teaching others how to fight and survive during Nuclear, Biological and Chemical warfare.

    If you have any questions on the subjects above please feel free to ask and I will try to answer. Being you helped pay for my Military training, (Thanks) I can't really charge you.

    P.S. Please make sure you know every thing there is to know about the subject matter before you ask. :) Thanks again and have a nice day.
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
    ChrisJ
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101

    You're asking for something you already have - see page 2 of the Sage Zone Control manual.

    The color of the wires is up to you.

    Thanks for the reply. I saw that, but a few things are not clear.

    Will this provide the required voltage for the thermostat?

    Is the R and W in the panel the same as the R and Ground on the right side of the thermostat?

    Thanks
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    @cnmdesign Unfortunately I cannot help you, but I did want to say thank you.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    cnmdesign
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    ChrisJ said:

    @cnmdesign Unfortunately I cannot help you, but I did want to say thank you.

    No need for Thanks, it was my honor.
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • Hey there:

    Your profile image made me tense, but I feel a lot better about you now that you gave us your background.

    Summer camp was my only exposure to guns where we shot target practice with .22 rifles. I shot and killed a bird with my BB gun when I was 12 and have never recovered. I just don't like guns; in my hands or in others.

    Thank you for risking your life for us here back home. I'm honored to have paid for your military training. Come to San Francisco and I'll buy you dinner.

    Some thermostats are power stealing thermostats and require a "C" connection. Can you give us the make and model number of the thermostats you want to use?
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited October 2018

    Hey there:

    Your profile image made me tense, but I feel a lot better about you now that you gave us your background.

    That's from my Business. The shell casings are from a three rifle volley given to a Veteran during his funeral and presented to a loved one along with a folded flag. I make displays for the shell casings.

    Summer camp was my only exposure to guns where we shot target practice with .22 rifles. I shot and killed a bird with my BB gun when I was 12 and have never recovered. I just don't like guns; in my hands or in others.

    Thank you for risking your life for us here back home. I'm honored to have paid for your military training. Come to San Francisco and I'll buy you dinner.

    Just might take you up on that and drop in one day. No need for dinner, thanks for the help, consider us even.

    Some thermostats are power stealing thermostats and require a "C" connection. Can you give us the make and model number of the thermostats you want to use?

    It's in the other link. Page 10

    I'm using an Alpha 2 in the secondary and DHW is zone 4.
    Do I need to jumper 3&4 in priority zone 4?
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • Yes, jumper 3 & 4 on zone 4 (DHW). If you don't jumper them, the relay will not be energized when your indirect calls for heat and you will have cold showers.

    Wire the pumps (system, secondary and DHW) as shown.

    Page 10 doesn't tell me anything about your thermostats.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101

    Yes, jumper 3 & 4 on zone 4 (DHW). If you don't jumper them, the relay will not be energized when your indirect calls for heat and you will have cold showers.

    Wire the pumps (system, secondary and DHW) as shown.

    Page 10 doesn't tell me anything about your thermostats.

    Link for thermostat
    https://www.ecomfort.com/manuals/alliancesl_io_manual.pdf

    There are no wires for the Alpha 2. So all I need to do is jumper 3&4?
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • That link is for the Alliance indirect water heater. Do you have a link for the thermostats you're using?

    The Alpha 2 pump only has line voltage connections: hot, neutral and ground which get wired to the terminals at the lower left of the zone valve controller as shown on the diagram.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited November 2018



    Sorry this is taking up so much of your time. Guess there is no such thing as an easy question in this business.

    That link is for the Alliance indirect water heater. Do you have a link for the thermostats you're using?

    Isn't the TPI Control Diagram on page 10 what you are looking for? If not, I have no idea where else to look.

    https://www.ecomfort.com/manuals/alliancesl_io_manual.pdf

    The Alpha 2 pump only has line voltage connections: hot, neutral and ground which get wired to the terminals at the lower left of the zone valve controller as shown on the diagram.

    My Alpha 2 came with a plug on the end of the cord and is plugged into an outlet. My secondary consist of four zones controlled by 4 Caleffi Zone One, zone valves. The DHW is priority zone 4. When that zone calls for heat the valve opens, all the other valves close and the Alpha 2 automatically provides the needed circulation.

    Am I wrong with this line of thinking?

    From what I understand, if current is interrupted to the Alpha 2 the information it has learned over time will be dumped and it has to learn all over again and should not be connected to an end switch.

    Am I wrong with this line of thinking?

    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,028
    Caleffi zone valves with 4 wires? Do they have a terminal strip, or red and black leads on them?

    The Alpha pumps the zones and the indirect? If so just plug it into the wall, forget about it, as long as it is in one of the Delta p or Auto Adapt settings. It will wake up when a zone valve opens, shut down to idle 7W when all zones close.

    Your TPI indirect control is electronic, so it needs 24V from the Sage to power, and a 3rd wire back to the Sage to open the zone valve.
    I think the Sage is basically a Taco relay box?

    From zone 4 connection on the Sage take 3 wires, basic 3 or 4 conductor thermostat, or two runs of 2 conductor, put tracer tape to keep track if you use two runs of two conductor wire..

    R&C from the Sage, connection 4, goes to 24V input at the TPI, that should light up the TPI. Now it needs to send a signal back to zone 4 W terminal, on a third wire, or conductor.

    The zone valve for the indirect wires to the Sage #4 at the bottom, all 4 wires on connections 1-4. 1&2 need to wired to the motor of the zone valve, either the two black wires or the terminals labeled motor, depending on which style Z one you have..

    My Dad taught me red, white, blue the color of the flag for wiring low voltage.
    4 conductor thermostat wire will have a red, white, blue, and green wire.

    Red is first, put it on R
    White next goes on W
    Blue is next, goes on C
    Green spare

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    cnmdesign
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited November 2018
    hot rod said:

    1. Caleffi zone valves with 4 wires? Do they have a terminal strip, or red and black leads on them?

    Two red and two black. You showed me how to hook them up a while back.

    2. The Alpha pumps the zones and the indirect? If so just plug it into the wall, forget about it, as long as it is in one of the Delta p or Auto Adapt settings. It will wake up when a zone valve opens, shut down to idle 7W when all zones close.

    It is plugged in to an outlet and set to Auto. The system has not been commissioned yet.

    3. Your TPI indirect control is electronic, so it needs 24V from the Sage to power, and a 3rd wire back to the Sage to open the zone valve.
    I think the Sage is basically a Taco relay box?

    Yes, it is a 404-4-ex

    4. From zone 4 connection on the Sage take 3 wires, basic 3 or 4 conductor thermostat, or two runs of 2 conductor, put tracer tape to keep track if you use two runs of two conductor wire..

    I have T-stat 18/3 R,W,G running from the stat on indirect going to the Sage. Neither end is hooked up yet.

    5. R&C from the Sage, connection 4, goes to 24V input at the TPI, that should light up the TPI.

    R to R and C (G) to Ground?

    6. Now it needs to send a signal back to zone 4 W terminal, on a third wire, or conductor.

    W wire from TPI to 4W on the top side of the Sage. Where do I connect (W) at the TPI?

    7. The zone valve for the indirect wires to the Sage #4 at the bottom, all 4 wires on connections 1-4. 1&2 need to wired to the motor of the zone valve, either the two black wires or the terminals labeled motor, depending on which style Z one you have..

    I have the:

    Two-way zone valve.
    Spring return.
    Normally closed actuator: Z111000
    Auxiliary micro-switch.


    As per your instructions they are wired 1-4 BLBL RR with no particular polarity.

    My Dad taught me red, white, blue the color of the flag for wiring low voltage. 4 conductor thermostat wire will have a red, white, blue, and green wire.

    Red is first, put it on R
    White next goes on W
    Blue is next, goes on C
    Green spare Using green instead of blue

    Thanks for your time. Leaving the house till morning.
    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    edited November 2018
    hot rod said:

    Caleffi zone valves with 4 wires? Do they have a terminal strip, or red and black leads on them?

    The Alpha pumps the zones and the indirect? If so just plug it into the wall, forget about it, as long as it is in one of the Delta p or Auto Adapt settings. It will wake up when a zone valve opens, shut down to idle 7W when all zones close.

    Your TPI indirect control is electronic, so it needs 24V from the Sage to power, and a 3rd wire back to the Sage to open the zone valve.
    I think the Sage is basically a Taco relay box?

    From zone 4 connection on the Sage take 3 wires, basic 3 or 4 conductor thermostat, or two runs of 2 conductor, put tracer tape to keep track if you use two runs of two conductor wire..

    R&C from the Sage, connection 4, goes to 24V input at the TPI, that should light up the TPI. Now it needs to send a signal back to zone 4 W terminal, on a third wire, or conductor.

    So in Zone 4 place the switch to Priority and
    R on the Sage goes to R on the right side of the TPI
    C on the Sage goes to Ground on right side of the TPI
    And
    W on the Sage goes to ? on the Left or Right side of the TPI


    The zone valve for the indirect wires to the Sage #4 at the bottom, all 4 wires on connections 1-4. 1&2 need to wired to the motor of the zone valve, either the two black wires or the terminals labeled motor, depending on which style Z one you have..

    My Dad taught me red, white, blue the color of the flag for wiring low voltage.
    4 conductor thermostat wire will have a red, white, blue, and green wire.

    Red is first, put it on R
    White next goes on W
    Blue is next, goes on C
    Green spare

    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,028
    R & C from the Sage should be 24V, do you have a meter, you can confirm that. So those two go to the two right hand connections on the TPI, that powers it up. No ground, just use the two terminals provided.

    What isn't clear is the two left connections on the TPI, I think they are dry contacts, a meter would confirm that since the wiring diagram is not real clear.

    If so jumper from Red on the right terminals to either left terminal, that puts you hot leg on the switch, the other left terminal gets white wire back to W on the Sage. That will send the signal back to the Sage, which in turn opens the Z-one.

    The Z-one end switch after 15 seconds turns on the call to the boiler, indicator lights on the Sage confirm the Z-one has made it's end switch.

    Maybe someone else here knows the TPI and IF the left two connections are a dry contact.

    The fact that the wiring schematic shows either 120V or 24V on those connections makes me think it is just dry contacts that you apply power to?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cnmdesign
    cnmdesign Member Posts: 101
    hot rod said:

    R & C from the Sage should be 24V, do you have a meter, you can confirm that. So those two go to the two right hand connections on the TPI, that powers it up. No ground, just use the two terminals provided.

    NOTE 1:
    Terminals C are for optional
    24V thermostat COMMON
    connections. Does this help any?



    What isn't clear is the two left connections on the TPI, I think they are dry contacts, a meter would confirm that since the wiring diagram is not real clear.

    Does the Diagrams on Page 15 help any? If not, I will start with your diagram and hope it works. Is there any chance it will fry anything on the Sage? :(

    If so jumper from Red on the right terminals to either left terminal, that puts you hot leg on the switch, the other left terminal gets white wire back to W on the Sage. That will send the signal back to the Sage, which in turn opens the Z-one.

    The Z-one end switch after 15 seconds turns on the call to the boiler, indicator lights on the Sage confirm the Z-one has made it's end switch.

    Maybe someone else here knows the TPI and IF the left two connections are a dry contact.

    The fact that the wiring schematic shows either 120V or 24V on those connections makes me think it is just dry contacts that you apply power to?

    Combat Veteran owned, Final Salute LLC on FaceBook & Twitter.
    www.afinalsalute.com
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,028
    To have 24V from a transformer you need a hot leg, and a common, a circuit, or loop so to speak.

    Correct, some thermostats that have lights or microprocessors or a circuit board need 24V a hot and a common. Your TPI is an example of such a case, he two right terminals need both sides of the transformer present.

    Then an additional wire is the switched leg indicating a call for heat in the tank

    If it were a simple older style cap tube aqua stat in the indirect it would just need two wires, the hot would make or break, just like the light switch on your wall.

    Meters and fuse help prevent letting smoke out of electrical components :)

    At least that is this plumbers take on control wiring.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    cnmdesign