no main vent or return

enniobruno

i have a steam boiler that needs to be replaced. I installed 15 years ago and now has rotted away. its a one pipe system with no main air vent and no return. ive always felt that the boiler would labor to make steam about 45 mins till the house was warm. im only heating about 1000 sq ft of space. the main right now comes up as 3in then goes into a tee 3x2x2 and goes into the main 2in pipe run. that run goes all the way around the basement and there is considerable pitch between the two. the plumber 15 years ago installed a 45 and connected both together. i think it wrong and iwant to do it right. please help

Steamhead

That sounds like a single wrap-around main. The lower portion of the main as it approaches the boiler is actually the return. Your main vent goes at that end, then a drip takes the water back to the boiler.

How about posting some pics and/or diagrams?

enniobruno

JUGHNE

Where is the highest point of the horizontal steam piping?
Is it above the boiler or is it at the added 45's.

In other words would the steam main drain back into the boiler?

Were there ever any other smaller pipes coming back to the boiler room…..even under the floor?

enniobruno

its at the added 45. yes right now the steam drains back into the
the boiler in the same pipe. no there was not ever another pipe that came back. i believe that the steam coming back is going directly into the main of the boiler. because if you look at the picture the tee is 3x2x1 1/2. and it never makes it back to the back of the boiler

enniobruno

i think whats happenig when it returns the condensate is cooling off the steam

Steamhead

enniobruno said:

i think whats happenig when it returns the condensate is cooling off the steam

Probably right. How much of the steam main was replaced with copper? This may give us a clue as to how it was originally set up.

Also, where are you located?

enniobruno

I’m in Yonkers ny. The boiler was moved by me 15 years ago. The part that was replaced is only from the boiler to the 45’s. About 6 feet

JUGHNE

So you relocated the boiler from where it was originally in the basement?
If so can you show us where it used to be on your drawing?

enniobruno

If you look at the 45’s the boiler was 3 ft to the right.

enniobruno

Here it is on the drawing

JUGHNE

Could you carefully remove the fiberglass insulation from the tee at the 45's. All 3 connection points. (you can feel the seam and cut it length wise with a knife).
Then back up for another picture of the tee and show where the copper connects to the left side of the tee. We want to see where the steel pipe ends and that copper starts going to the tee.

enniobruno

Here you go.

KC_Jones

I'm going to take a wild guess here.

I am guessing the high side of that 45 was the original start of the main, the low side was the return. Someone tied them together to allow for that basement area to be finished, because the return used to drop straight down and over to the boiler.

With the set up the way it is (if I am correct) the performance of the system has been put right into the commode. That tee should be removed and the return piped back in properly like it was originally.

enniobruno

Found this from another user. I think it’s suoposed to look like it

JUGHNE

I would now make the same guess as KC.
You could go to the iron tee on the left side of the 45's for your steam main supply. The high point of the supply would be above the boiler, it looks like there is a lot of ceiling room there.

The return line could follow the route of the copper supply you have now, draining down towards the boiler return. There you would have your air venting above the vertical drop for the return.

New England SteamWorks

It is surprising how often we run into this situation. It's almost to the point that we suspect there's a book or an article out there somewhere that encourages this.

Things always run much better after we correct and vent. Steam flow should be one way, -no colliding!

enniobruno

So your saying run another pipe to the 2 in on the left. And use the other as the return. I was talking to a few plumbers and they think that the steam is supposed to go both ways. I believe they are wrong. Also on both pipes do I just add a 90 and com back to boiler?

enniobruno

One more question the main coming out of the boiler should it be pitched or level going towards the pipe on the left

JUGHNE

In some cases steam could go both ways but not with a bullheaded tee.....and also then it would have a return pipe for each side draining down toward the boiler.

But in your case you have one steam pipe going out and one return coming back to the boiler.
On the left side IIWM I would add a 6" nipple and then a 90 back towards the boiler. The steam pipe should be high above the boiler so the condensate drains away from the boiler towards your new 90. You want to avoid having any condensate running back towards the steam flow and into the top of the boiler.

On the right side (dry return) it should slope down towards the boiler for draining. Your air vents should be on the return pipe.
You should only use iron pipe for steam lines, including the return up to the air vents.

enniobruno

Thanks for all the help. I’ll post some pics when it’s done.

enniobruno

Here you go

JUGHNE

?? ??

enniobruno

That was an earlier message that never went through. I had the level out today and the pipe in the left is pitched to the right. I turned the heat on this morning and hadn’t my hands on the 45’s and the pipes got hot in both direction. Any thoughts?

JUGHNE

In any event you have no return piping for the condensate.
The only way you would have no return piping would be if you had a counterflow system. Where the condensate is returned thru the supply only by flowing against the direction of the steam flow.
With your 2 pipes at the tee having that difference in elevation it seems one is the supply and the other was the return.

enniobruno

when i return the pipe back to the boiler what size should it be?what can i reduce it to?

JUGHNE

A picture of the pipe on the right on the other side of the wall behind the door with the clothes hanging on it....please.

enniobruno

its in a soffit. no access

enniobruno

i can get a camera in there. what were you looking to see

JUGHNE

The return could be smaller than the steam main.
However the reduction would have to be done with an eccentric fitting or done by reducing 90 pointing down. This would lower the pipe even more.

In the soffit I am guessing that copper is connected into the old iron pipe just like the left side is.

I will have stones thrown at me here for suggesting this but IIWM, considering the grief of opening the soffit to change the pipe, I would cap the left side of the Tee and use the existing steam copper pipe as the return.
The pipe is already there with the correct slope. It would need to have provisions for air venting at the boiler before it drops to the return.

The new steam main must be black iron pipe.
A new boiler manual will have piping instruction to be followed.
Those are the bare minimum requirements and usually call for black iron piping for the steam supply.

enniobruno

Right now that cooper is two inch. Should I reduce it to 1 1/2 when I come down to back of boiler?