G125BE burner conversion from blue flame to Riello

Jesse53

Before you ask why I would do this please read. I bought a G125BE as suggested for the best possible oil efficiency. Once it was installed and I looked for a company to service it I found there are no trained tech with in the local businesses who do boiler service in the area. Those who have looked at it walk away saying they don't know the burner. I'm quite tired of trying to find help and the Dist rep is of now help as well as the supply house who sold the unit. Both say they sold me a good product. The rep suggests and says it can be converted with Riello burner C8512543 and states there are no other parts needed. Now before you ask or tell me to get a certified tech to answer this read back there are none in the area? You might also ask why the install company isn't certified and had training on this unit. Well no one said they had to be, the part was ordered by a mechanical contractor and a plumber installed the whole system and it's been up and running for 4 years now. So if anyone has been through this process or has knowledge of what parts other than the suggested burner I would like to hear from you. I'm told by local service companies if it gets a different burner they can and will work on it. One last thing I was told to remove all baffles except the lower right and left, by the rep.

STEVEusaPA

Where are you located?

EBEBRATT-Ed

if the rep can't find you a service provider for his own product he's not doing his job. something is amiss

Jamie Hall

I'm not trying to be snarky, but... isn't this a good example of what we so often preach? You aren't buying the equipment, you're buying the installation and the service down the road...

Steamhead

STEVEusaPA said:

Where are you located?

This, @Jesse53 . If anyone can help you out or find someone who can, it's us.

Jesse53

I'm in northern Vermont

Jesse53

Jamie I don't disagree. How ever I converted from a hot air to boiler because I put an addition on and needed more output. At the time I had a service tech that came with when I bought the house. I asked him where I should shop for a new heat system. He sent me to the local plumbing supply house. I asked for info on their most efficient oil burning boiler. My service tech worked alone and couldn't install a whole system, radiation, controls, zone pumps, and indirect tank. So I found someone who would buy all the needed parts and do the job. He was one of 2 who said they could install but were not in the service field. At the time I thought with all the oil delivery folks around how hard could it be to find a service tech. Turns out to be harder than it would seem. As for the Buderus rep he did come up with a list of techs, most of whom were not trained and would not work on it. The only one he offered that had trained techs, says I'm not in their service area? They did come here once for a fail because I had not heat in the night one winter. However they didn't come until the next day, and I was told by them to convert so someone local could work on this. They also told me at any point they might refuse to come based on their work load within their area. I have several who say if converted to Riello they would service it? The supply house is offering the Riello burner at their cost but say that's all they will do for me. Buderus in NH offers nothing

Jesse53

EBEBRATT-Ed wrote "if the rep can't find you a service provider for his own product he's not doing his job. something is amiss"

Ed? Same as I said to Jamie don't disagree. However it's a fact and I been dealing with it for some time now. I'm looking for info on this conversion and what is needed to do it so I can have all the parts needed. To answer why me if asked? Because I have a couple techs who say they could convert if I get the parts. So question again is has anyone done this and what does it require. The rep said it can be and has been done. He claims all I need is the Riello burner C8512543. I feel there must be more? The cable coming to it has a plug which fits the Buderus blue flame burner so what is done here? Cut it off and do a hard wire? I'm not happy about spending extra for more a more efficient boiler and now looking at spending more to convert to something less. So again have you or anyone done this conversion and can you offer suggestions?

Thanks Jesse

Jamie Hall

Oh dear, @Jesse53 -- which side of northern Vermont? Either side you are in a bit of a black hole when it comes to service -- although the St. Johnsbury side (you mention New Hampshire) is somewhat darker than the Burlington side... I honestly can't think of anyone right off hand that services either Buderus or Riello specifically up that way.

I have not done that conversion, and most of the people I know of who are clever with that sort of thing are at least 5 hours away -- not too practical. Sorry...

Jesse53

Jamie Thanks, no I'm on the Burlington side but all those suggested by the Buderus rep are a no go! Some because they are not trained on the blue flame, others are not servicing in my area. I mentioned NH because that's where Buderus HQ is in the east

EBEBRATT-Ed

Burlington is a good sized city surprised there is no one there. I guess have it converted then you haven't got much choice.

Clearly Buderus should provide better support. Call this guy he works for directly for Buderus and has done start-ups for me.

Doug Lamprey 1-603-361-5439

HVACNUT

The BE can easily be converted to a Riello. But I dont recognize the model you listed. A Riello BF3 or BF5 depending on whether you have a 3,4 or 5 section.
I did one on a temporary basis once because the tech before me tried to remove the burner and smashed the porcelain blast tube against the block.
It's the same exact casting as the G115, but yes, baffles will need to be removed or adjusted to bring up the stack temp.
If you have the Logomatic 2107, then nothing else needs to be done.
Get an OEM Riello for a G115/3, or /4 or /5 depending on what yours is. OEM is kind of important here because there are different blast tube lengths and insertion depths for each.
Since combustion air should already be there, (in the lower right rear corner) you can easily connect it to the BF Riello or the F with the fresh air kit.
Is it chimney or sidewall vented?

STEVEusaPA

HVACNUT said:

...Get an OEM Riello for a G115/3, or /4 or /5 depending on what yours is. OEM is kind of important here because there are different blast tube lengths and insertion depths for each.
...

Aren't there only two air tube lengths for Riello?
BTW, it's a kinder, gentler oil burner world now-air tube vs. blast tube .

Jesse53

HVACNUT, Mine is 4 sections, it's a G125BE/28 so I guess the R40 F5 Riello is the right one. I have read where it needs to be a OEM which is "blue" in color for Buderus and not the "red".

I'm not real happy to make this change for 2 reasons, (both lead to same) which is cost. First cost to convert and second more money for oil. I'm guessing loosing Blue flame function is only part and then removing these baffles is where the AFUE goes south?

Jesse53

EBEBRATT, thanks for the name and number I will give him a call. There are only 2 tube lengths 6" and 10" the F3 & 5 are both listed with 6" but the F5 is also listed with 10" which I think is intended for the 5 section 140 BTU input

Jamie Hall

The only comments I'd have at this point is that both @EBEBRATT-Ed and @HVACNUT have given you excellent advice (no surprise, they are among the best people on here) and second that you shouldn't pay too much attention to "AFUE". It's about as reliable as the EPA mileage rating on a car. And your mileage may vary... there's a lot one can do to save on fuel costs, and the Riello and Buderus burners are close enough in real efficiency (not AFUE) as to make almost no difference -- if they are properly set up and adjusted.

Robert O'Brien

I wouldn't automatically remove the baffles. Whoever does it can determine whether some need to be removed after the Riello goes in. As long as you can maintain the proper OF draft, some or all may stay. Haven't worn the hat yet!

Jesse53

Robert O'Brien. says, " I wouldn't automatically remove the baffles. Whoever does it can determine whether some need to be removed after the Riello goes in. As long as you can maintain the proper OF draft, some or all may stay. Haven't worn the hat yet! "
Robert are you saying you have either done this ( remove baffles a pair at a time ) and check draft? Or you have heard of others doing this? If some remain that would be good for efficiency?

HVACNUT

What baffles remain, get removed, or adjusted will be dependent on the combustion analysis. Too low stack temp, remove a set, or turn. The bottom baffles have 3 positions that can be adjusted.
All variables for optimum efficiency with a stack temp high enough to prevent the flue gasses from condensing and maintaining a -.02 draft at the breach.

HVACNUT

It's a cryin' shame nobody near you is certified for the BE. You (or somebody) paid a lot more for the 125BE over the G115.
And it's too bad the BE never took off in the states because they are beautiful boilers and burners. Maybe everyone thought it would be like the original Blue Ray.

Jesse53

HVACNUT, Yes this BE has been great except when it wouldn't fire and I had to look for someone to diagnose. I have talked to Buderus/Bosh and asked for the service book with codes to recover from faults. They act like I'm asking for a regulated drug. Not tooting my horn, but I could likely maintain this my self if I had the resources available to me. I even asked them to let me take the training class. I was a electronics tech for a career at IBM in town and worked on multi million dollar semi conductor with, all kinds of dangers, High voltage. RF power, deadly gases which if not purged out would kill you. But I guess because I don't work mech contractor I can't be trained? Frustrating! Yes it sucks I paid big bucks for the best and now have to pay to convert to something lessor.

Robert O'Brien

Jesse53 said:

Robert O'Brien. says, " I wouldn't automatically remove the baffles. Whoever does it can determine whether some need to be removed after the Riello goes in. As long as you can maintain the proper OF draft, some or all may stay. Haven't worn the hat yet! "
Robert are you saying you have either done this ( remove baffles a pair at a time ) and check draft? Or you have heard of others doing this? If some remain that would be good for efficiency?

You want a -.02 to .03 at breech and a +.04 to .06 overfire. Try it with all baffles in place and if needed reposition or remove baffles as needed to get where you want to be.

Robert O'Brien

Jesse53 said:

HVACNUT, Yes this BE has been great except when it wouldn't fire and I had to look for someone to diagnose. I have talked to Buderus/Bosh and asked for the service book with codes to recover from faults. They act like I'm asking for a regulated drug. Not tooting my horn, but I could likely maintain this my self if I had the resources available to me. I even asked them to let me take the training class. I was a electronics tech for a career at IBM in town and worked on multi million dollar semi conductor with, all kinds of dangers, High voltage. RF power, deadly gases which if not purged out would kill you. But I guess because I don't work mech contractor I can't be trained? Frustrating! Yes it sucks I paid big bucks for the best and now have to pay to convert to something lessor.

It's been discontinued for 5 years or so, I can't imagine they even offer a class at this point. Download the manuals and get the service kit. Stock some parts and get a combustion analyzer and give it a go if you feel confident. The problem is the cost of that will never be recouped through the 3% greater combustion efficiency.

Robert O'Brien

https://www.bosch-climate.us/files/6720804882_01_LogatopBE_1.3-2.3_InstallationServiceInstructions_en_09.2012_US.pdf
https://www.bosch-climate.us/files/G125BE_InstallationServiceInstructions_en_102012-6720804880_US.pdf

HVACNUT

Sounds like you can tackle it but you need a digital combustion analyzer. The only way to properly adjust the BE burner is using the chart in the manual to get a specific CO2 at the current combustion air temperature (from outside) by adjusting the pump pressure.
And only use the nozzle specified for your boiler. Hago RFD.

carl_nh

HI Jesse53
What did you end up doing with this? I find myself in the same situation here in NH - on the coast. The installer of ours retired and now no one wants to touch it or tune it up (125BE 21).

Ours has 8000 hours, still burning blue, but it needs new ignitor leads (I have) and a nozzle change which I have too. I do the cleaning annually but don't have the analyzer tools to set the air etc. I have the original settings and all the manuals and could do this - just don't want to start something then not get it running again without support.
Let me know how you made out and was Doug Lamprey able to help - if so I will contact him.

Thanks
Carl

HVACNUT

> @carl_nh said:
> HI Jesse53
> What did you end up doing with this? I find myself in the same situation here in NH - on the coast. The installer of ours retired and now no one wants to touch it or tune it up (125BE 21).
>
> Ours has 8000 hours, still burning blue, but it needs new ignitor leads (I have) and a nozzle change which I have too. I do the cleaning annually but don't have the analyzer tools to set the air etc. I have the original settings and all the manuals and could do this - just don't want to start something then not get it running again without support.
> Let me know how you made out and was Doug Lamprey able to help - if so I will contact him.
>
> Thanks
> Carl

Have you tried contacting Buderus to see if there is a certified BE tech in your area.

I normally wouldn't recommend it but if you cant find anyone, you might be better off getting your own analyzer, smoke tester, and digital probe thermometer.
The manual spells it all out pretty well. Start a new thread if and when, and we can help make it all good.

If you dont want the hassle, I'll trade you a '96 WM WGO-3 for your BE. 😁

carl_nh

Thanks - Yes I spoke with Tom @ Buderus in Londonderry - he suggested Dead River but they only service their oil customers and we have a contract for 18-19 pre bought. I have tried others too. I will get equipment as a last resort as that's $500+ but maybe its time to learn!

HVACNUT

Their contract ain't worth diddly if they accepted the equipment and cant service it.
Call Dead River.

GBart

Not sure why Buderus dropped the burner, low sales?? but I found that they must be checked for CO, they can put out 10,000ppm plus if out of adjustment and that is scary because if any exhaust leaks out you're toast, one I saw was like 26,000ppm.

The BlueRay burners were recalled and shut down as in taken out of service because anytime you re-burn your exhaust your CO goes up and these were early designs and leaked a lot of exhaust while running.

https://inspectapedia.com/heat/BlueRay_Heater_Recall.php

GBart

HVACNUT

@GBart
Dont even try to compare the BE to the original Blue Ray.
With the Carlin 99. A special Monarch. 75 70° CC nozzle. The dinner plate target. That thing was a mess from the get go. Even after they were converted.
High CO output I'm sure due to the way the flue collector warps from high heat and poor draft. New Kaowool gasket was needed everytime the hood came off.
The Blue Ray failed and was "shut down" because Blue Ray failed.
The BE didn't fail. The design and operation of the burner is second to none for a residential oil burner. It just didn't sell here. We'll have to wait until we're paying $12 gallon before we see it, or a revision again.
I service 6 BE boilers and ALL have 0 PPM CO. so please, don't.

GBart

Read what I said, I said I don't know why they were dropped, low sales?? fact is every time something advanced comes out it tends to falter due to the lack of technical ability, ability to learn, and ability or desire to read installation and service manuals by technicians.

IF and IF a technician sets up the BE wrong you end up with the same results as the Blueray, extremely high CO and I saw it simply from someone placing the baffles wrong, took us hours to figure it out BY FINALLY READING THE MANUAL.

The baffles look completely normal at first glance, they also require sealed combustion and that means a dedicated outside air source and a lot of installers skip that.

But for any supply house to sell something like the BE or other high end equipment to DIY's is irresponsible

Rimy

This is an old thread but I thought I might add some insight to future readers.
This was a good system that had potential. Unfortunately it was very expensive and timed just right for the recession at the time so sales flopped and eventually discontinued. It is also very different from other burners with not really a lot of practical difference in combustion efficiency.
The other thought is that these boilers were expected to be super economic to operate. They are if you have the right heating system. Many of them were installed as just part of a standard fin tube baseboard system which hardly changed the economics at all. The Logamatic control is really designed for a constant circulation system so pairing it with this boiler and baseboard made it an expensive switching relay.
To the contractor's defense it was sold as the best but very little training on what type of heating system it should have been paired with and why was provided by the supply houses and really ended up as buyer-beware. If it was paired with say a constant circulation radiant panel system then you would have seen the economic benefit but that's a rarity.
The problem now is finding people with experience and training and parts availability. The basic parts are available such as nozzles and pump filter-BTW this is not a standard nozzle. Other parts such as a primary control may have a few days wait as suppliers may only have a couple in their entire system.
Reading through some of the answers such as setting the draft shows there are untrained people assuming advice. Be wary. This is NOT a standard burner. There are certain test tools that are needed to do this properly and safely. If you have one of these and can't find a tech call Buderus in NH and ask them for an approved contractor near your area.
Some of the diagnostic tools never became available in certain areas so that makes it tough to begin with. There are also so few of these burners relative to the others that techs who were trained will almost always be rusty and it will take more time to diagnose problems.

HVACNUT

> @Rimy said:
> This is an old thread but I thought I might add some insight to future readers.
> This was a good system that had potential. Unfortunately it was very expensive and timed just right for the recession at the time so sales flopped and eventually discontinued. It is also very different from other burners with not really a lot of practical difference in combustion efficiency.

Yes, the cost difference between the BE and the G115 was substantial to gain 3 to 4% AFUE.

> The other thought is that these boilers were expected to be super economic to operate. They are if you have the right heating system. Many of them were installed as just part of a standard fin tube baseboard system which hardly changed the economics at all. The Logamatic control is really designed for a constant circulation system so pairing it with this boiler and baseboard made it an expensive switching relay.

Um, no. With ODR and dialing in the emmiters SWT, with multiple circuits if needed, WWSD, and a host of other options makes it a little more than a glorified switching relay.
A properly set up 2107 will adapt to fin tube, radiant, hydro air, high temp, low temp, high and low temp together. What?

> To the contractor's defense it was sold as the best but very little training on what type of heating system it should have been paired with and why was provided by the supply houses and really ended up as buyer-beware. If it was paired with say a constant circulation radiant panel system then you would have seen the economic benefit but that's a rarity.

A contractor couldn't (or shouldn't) have been able to purchase or service a BE without completing a Buderus certification course. And we know the 2107 was and is offered on multiple Buderus applications so...

> The problem now is finding people with experience and training and parts availability. The basic parts are available such as nozzles and pump filter-BTW this is not a standard nozzle. Other parts such as a primary control may have a few days wait as suppliers may only have a couple in their entire system.

A Danfoss HFD nozzle is required for all three BE sizes. A maintaintanenc kit is available from Bosch/Buderus.

> Reading through some of the answers such as setting the draft shows there are untrained people assuming advice. Be wary. This is NOT a standard burner. There are certain test tools that are needed to do this properly and safely.

Again, the Tech must be certified, which as you stated, will be hard to find but a pro can download the manuals and be fine. The "certain" test tools are a digital combustion analyzer, smoke tester, manometer to set OF static pressure, and a thermometer. Pretty basic stuff.

If you have one of these and can't find a tech call Buderus in NH and ask them for an approved contractor near your area.
> Some of the diagnostic tools never became available in certain areas so that makes it tough to begin with.

????

There are also so few of these burners relative to the others that techs who were trained will almost always be rusty and it will take more time to diagnose problems.

Like riding a bike. Once its embedded into your melon, it should be there for good. Or do as attorneys do and open the book to find precedence.

Rimy

I read through your comments on my comment. Fair enough. I took the course years ago so I am certified on the BE. I agree with one of the other writers that this is not a DIY burner. Yes one can figure it out with the manuals but can also cause themselves a headache. I am definitely not opposed to anybody attempting anything with their own equipment. In my opinion this is a place where the trained tech is better off than a DIYer.

>The "certain" test tools are a digital combustion analyzer, smoke tester, manometer to set OF static pressure, and a thermometer. Pretty basic stuff. Exactly - FOR A PRO!!

You can also add to your tool list a multimeter. Voltage, polarity, and current can mess with the LMO.

In response to your ???? on the equipment. It is called an "adapter". It helps diagnose the Siemens LMO control. It also helps when bleeding the oil line. If you look at the manual it suggests using that over hitting the reset too many times because you could damage the primary. Using a hand pump to bleed the lines can be a pain in the tail in certain situations. For a long time it was not available - at least in my area with the then suppliers. It may have been with Buderus in NH but at the time they either didn't have it or didn't realize they had it. Probably mostly due to the fact they called it an adapter which would appear to have nothing to do with diagnostics. They also didn't have it at the time I took the course. A couple of us wanted to buy it on the spot but it couldn't.


>A properly set up 2107 will adapt to fin tube, radiant, hydro air, high temp, low temp, high and low temp together. What?

What?? What??? -Funny- I liked that response.

Um, yes, on the relay. I'm talking about how it has been utilized in many of the applications I have gone in on. And you are correct - you have to "ADAPT". And it will adapt to just about anything. So will just about any other control if you want it to. It's design is intended for a primary circuit - preferably constant circulation as you might use with a panel system for example (it works good with radiant floors as well) - and an optional secondary circuit. You can also play around with the DHW circuit to do other things if you want. Your imagination is the limit if with the right knowledge. And... Yes... you can make it do all kinds of things with extra external stuff. Many many times when I go in on a service call with the Logamatic it is doing nothing more than what a basic switching relay would do. The capabilities haven't even been scratched. The installer didn't use the ODR or DHW, or the programming features on and on and on Yada, Yada, Yada. It basically sits as decoration on top of the boiler.

Europeans have a completely different thought process on residential heating. They also have homes of different designs than ours especially here in the Northeast. They hardly use high temperature heating in residential unless they have to. They tend to focus on low and mid temperature heating such as radiant floors, fan coils, and radiant panels or cast iron radiators. That is where this technology was developed and we are catching up to them in that respect but back when this boiler was initially sold here we were still "baseboard men".

>Like riding a bike. OK. But you have to get on that bike first. There are those in this industry, and any other, who either don't want the technical experience and expertise, don't want to put in the time to gain it, or really just don't want to deal with the out of the ordinary stuff. It's all OK. There's a place for all of us. After doing this for 30+ years I personally like the challenge of the off-beat and unusual.

HVACNUT

Yes a pro is absolutely needed. That's why he wants, (or it's done by now) to install a Riello. Still needs a Pro but finding one wont be as hard as finding one with a BE certification. Finding one who is also familiar with the 2107 might be another challenge, and there is an owners manual, but it reads like War And Peace.
I've never heard of an Adapter for the Siemens LMO controller. I know it's got color status lights. Red, yellow, green. And diagnostic codes in the way of light flashes. If you come across an adapter, PM me please. Sounds interesting.
I cant say I'm not a wee bit envious of BE owners. I think it's a great design. It's too bad they were a little too heavy on the wallet.

LMHVAC

I am a certified G125BE installer. I have installed 1 system using this boiler and regret it. They run great until the fuel company delivers fuel containing BIOFUEL which apparently here in NY is now the norm. This burner is not compatible with BIOFUEL it will clog the nozzle line preheater in a matter of days. Buderus no longer supports this burner and I was told by Bosch/Buderus to replace with a Riello. My customer was not happy as the system was only 5-6 years old and the burner needed to be replaced. Beware!

Mith

Had one of these for quite a while until the only local tech who could ever adjust it properly moved away. Bought it from the local oil company the first year it was available and Buderus literally sent trainers from Germany and ran a seminar in our house while it was installed!

The nozzles are hard to find -- I finally started ordering them from Amazon in the UK, they're more common there, and having them mailed to me by a friend in London -- and we had a couple of failures of the UV flame sensor, which I think is specific to this burner. Bosch no longer stocks this part in the US. Finally when the flame sensor failed the second time we let the head tech at the oil company do the Riello burner swap. Standard red-can Riello burner, only problem was the air intake was on the wrong side so he had to get out his tin snips and make another hole.

He insisted on replacing the Logamatic controller at the same time, claimed it's discontinued and that if we went with the OEM G115 burner we'd have the connector problem others here have mentioned except in reverse if our old controller ever failed. I didn't let him put in the single-setpoint controller he had in mind but we compromised on a middle of the road unit with outdoor reset and so far, so good.

Wasn't there when he adjusted the burner and did the combustion test. Would have liked to see what kind of stack temps we ended up with. With the old burner and baffle configuration it was all too easy to condense without meaning to -- I assume some baffles probably came out.

I do not miss the Logamatic. It always struck me as an incredibly obtuse, limited version of a low-end commercial controller like a Heat Timer. I might have felt differently if we'd gone with the Buderus-branded indoor thermostats and room temp sensors, but even though our install was basically performed by the factory techs (training class...) they didn't choose to do that.

Anyway, we now have a blue boiler with a lot of red parts and it seems to be working great.