Warren Webster rad trap ID??

JUGHNE

Have about 50 rads with Warren Webster traps.
There are 2 "7"'s within a circle on the cover.
Some other numbers on the body are 02R....02L... 02H...??
Any info for replacement elements would be helpful.

This is a 1933 2 story schoolhouse with mains in attic.
There are about 15 of these traps used for drip traps.
All covers are original with the exception of 2 drips which have METCO 1/2" 1R covers with RTV/gaskets.

Traps were supposed to have been repaired about 8 years ago.
Getting a lot of steam in the dry returns.

Thanks in advance.

Steamhead

702H. Both Tunstall and Barnes & Jones have replacement innards.

JUGHNE

Some are the standard bottom discharge and some side discharge. Same replacement parts for either??

Steamhead

I think so. Both companies have online catalogs if you want to make sure.

JUGHNE

Thinking of using traps only for the steam drips and installing supply orifices in valves. Many are TRV's.
Any thoughts about removing the trap guts for better air venting thru the orifice/TRV?

Steamhead

As I understand it, the original Webster radiator valves, like many others, had orificing capability built in. This was to help balance the system. On a mild day, steam would never reach the radiator traps except maybe in the morning coming out of setback. In this case, or if the pressure control didn't work (as might be caused by a plugged pigtail) the radiator traps would keep the steam where it belonged.

I prefer to vent the mains quickly and the radiators more slowly on these systems, so the steam will favor the main vent (usually a crossover trap) on start-up. This helps distribute steam to the end more quickly, especially on larger systems. I like to use the B&J Big Mouth Crossover Traps in this application since they vent so much faster.

JUGHNE

In doing site survey, I noticed maybe only 2 original WW valves remaining. Most have been replaced by TRV's.
I was planning to add orifices on TRV's and perhaps remove trap guts. Hoping for quicker air venting.

This is an attic main that down feeds two floors.
That WW trap is used for the drip of each drop; usually on the lower floor as most radiation is stacked 1st and 2nd floor lined up and down. (drops are 1 1/2 then reduce to 1 1/4)

This is and always was a pumped return.
(I have the prints, but don't tell anyone )
Boiler room is only 1/2 floor below grade; high ground water-no regular basements in the town.
Most of the return is underground and when replaced may not have been set to drain as the dry return it should be.....could have water traps in it.

I have found places on several steam drops that I could install air vents. I believe this would at least vent the 5" attic main.
It seems a place to start.

A lot of hack work/repairs since 1933.

Steamhead

OK- I'd replace the 702H traps on the last two or three drop risers with Big Mouth Crossovers. This will help vent the attic main quickly.

Depending on whose TRVs you use, they may have a high enough CV rating that orificing would be redundant. We usually use Danfoss TRVs on systems like this. Obviously you would not want TRVs in the area of the thermostat.

JUGHNE

Would the Big Mouth work as a drip trap??
These existing traps drip about 20' of 1 1/2-1 1/4 vertical drop from the main.
I see places where rads have been removed that I could add a Big Mouth vent and still use the drip trap.
Could the vent be installed where a rad supply valve once was on the 1 1/4" vertical supply and then be connected/vented below a drip trap into the dry return? Sound like a plan?

The best end of main vent install would be in classrooms and I prefer not to have an open air vent there.

Steamhead

That'll work. On both questions.

JUGHNE

Thanks a lot.

Did Gordo ever get that 5 bolt WW 26-T F&T I sent him?
I may have 2 more if interested.

Steamhead

I believe so- will make sure.

JUGHNE

I have to drive 50 miles to this school tomorrow.
Any best guess as what size of socket fits the top lid?
Then to remove the old seat? Some deep thin socket?

The replacements for these WW 702 are B&J 1972, (so I am told).
The original cover can be reused but the old seat must be removed.

If the old cover is there and the old seat still installed is it a good guess that these are original elements? Or did someone have a replacement that used both the old seat and old cover within the last 10 years?

Steamhead

Webster did until they folded in 1969 or so. It'll be interesting to see the date code on those old trap elements.

JUGHNE

I did get almost all traps opened, about 38 rad traps and 28 drip traps. All where WW 702H, a lot of LR and RH.
Most elements were Hoffman Durastat's.
About 10 spring loaded with gasket on the bottom.
And actually 3 drips in hidden locations with date codes of
12-4-32 etc. New install in 1933.

I plan to do orifices on just about all rad supply valves.
Now the issue is operating pressure. The lowest the HW control will go to is 1.75 to 2.75 PSI. I know I can change this control but the oversized boiler is already short cycling.

All air venting is thru dry (hopefully) returns to the cond pump.
There is over 500' of horizontal main in the attic.
From 5" eventually down to 2".
I calculate about 23.48 cubic feet of pipe.
There are 28 1/2" drip traps on that many 1 1/2-1 1/4 drops.

I have found 3 end of main areas where I could install air venting to assist the dry return venting. (3/4" tapings)

Is there a chance that adding more steam main venting will lessen the short cycling of the boiler and then I could chose orifice sizing based on 2 PSI max. (my charts only go to 2 PSI)

Many windows closed up or upgraded very well since 1933.
About 1/4 of EDR removed.