Joist Trak Above Floor

ice4me

Has anyone installed Uponor/Wirsbo Joist Trak above the subfloor with sleepers in between the tubing? I plan to use their hePex tubing and make my own return bend panels. Any issues (e.g. noise) or advice?

Thanks!

psb75

What about Uponor Quick Trak system?

hot_rod

Take a look at this system from Radiant Design. They supply the return headers and you source the plywood locally. Saves shipping lumber across the country.

If you have the time and woodworking tools it may be a good option.

Plenty of systems have been site built as you describe.

https://radiantdesignandsupply.com/productsthermofin

ice4me

The Quick Trak system looks nice but has two major drawbacks for me:

1) As far as I can tell it only comes in 5/16" tubing size

2) It costs considerably more than the Joist Trak (including the cost of plywood sleepers, but excluding the cost of added time for install).

ice4me

hot rod said:

Take a look at this system from Radiant Design. They supply the return headers and you source the plywood locally. Saves shipping lumber across the country.

If you have the time and woodworking tools it may be a good option.

Plenty of systems have been site built as you describe.

https://radiantdesignandsupply.com/productsthermofin

ThermoFin-U was actually my first choice when I first started designing the radiant system. It looks like they have a great product and many positive comments on the forum here. Without going into too much detail, there have been a few reasons I've switched my focus onto the Joist Trak product:

1) Since I mostly work solo, I like the idea of being able to put the tubing in after the plates are installed (in fairness, I could do this with ThermoFin-C, I suppose). It also makes tubing repairs/replacement much easier, if needed.

2) The cost of shipping from Radiant Supply was a deal breaker for me. Joist Trak ships for free.

3) I had concerns over Radiant Supply's customer service (very long response times, inability to get details correct on quote). Don't get me wrong, no major issues, but enough to initiate a search for an alternative.

STEVEusaPA

Watts has a similar set up with the headers, corners and sleepers, and plates.

Tinman

I have used that method many times. I rip all the plywood for the sleepers too. It goes quicker than you'd think if you have enough space to set up shop. It's very quiet.

heathead

I have used Radiant Supply and design. Very happy with them. The shipping was very reasonable, much better than I could get on my own. I think they invented the plates in the first place. Might want to give them another try, maybe they where really busy that week, or the person you talked to was having a bad day. I know it is no excuse, but when ever I deal with them they have been great. I also like the Roth product look at that design for over concrete . I know someone has a more cost effective alternative to the Roth but the name is slipping my mind at this time. I wonder why Radiant Supply and Design doesn't advertise on this site?

ice4me

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I've looked at some of these other products, but I've decided to move forward with the Joist Trak. For my circumstances, it makes the most sense in terms of cost, quality, and availability.

Stephen, how much of a gap do you typically leave between the sleepers and the heat transfer plate (tube)?

Tinman

It depends. It's based on heat loss, but/sf, and supply water temperature needed but mine have varied from 9"-12". I never had to go tighter than that. I have some pictures I can share with you, maybe as soon as tomorrow. They're at the shop on an external hard drive.

Gordy

I did one with 3/8 L soft copper tubing when it was still cheap. 1/2" plywood, 1/4" hardibacker, and tile. 8" centers. This was floor warming only no plates. The load was already covered by ceiling radiant.

ice4me

Stephen Minnich said:

It depends. It's based on heat loss, but/sf, and supply water temperature needed but mine have varied from 9"-12". I never had to go tighter than that. I have some pictures I can share with you, maybe as soon as tomorrow. They're at the shop on an external hard drive.

Sorry, I should have been more clear with my question- I was asking about the gap between the plywood and the side of the HT plate (not the spacing of the tubing). See below. Pictures are still welcome though!

Tinman

I go right to the plates. Not jamming it but easy to slip in the plywood.

Steve Zerby

I've done it with thermo-fin u with the plates on top of the sleepers so that the aluminum is sandwiched between the sleepers and the finish flooring. A little labor-intensive, and counter to the way Thermo-fin wants you to do it (sleepers over fins).

I left about a half-inch on either side of the channel to give me leeway in positioning the fin in relation to the return loop panels I routed, which were less-than perfectly consistent.

I did it that way on the assumption that the system would be more responsive and have higher BTU transfer if it only has to push through 3/4" of wood rather than 1 1/2".

Trying to get Radiant Engineering to commit to BTU output numbers depending on water temperature and r-value of flooring was an exercise in futility. Uponor has tables for BTU/sf output with variables of input water temp and r-value of floor covering. I used their tables in the end, assuming the products were similar enough in output.

hot_rod

The key is to make sure all the components are tightly fastened to prevent noise from the thermal expansion and contraction,m as the aluminum and wood react differently. Ir pics that I have seen seem to show a little better heat spread with the plate under the sleepers, but as Steve mentioned it does cost a smell transfer penalty.

I have some FEA and IR pics somewhere of the two methods. I thought they came from Radiant Design?

Simply Rad

I have installed both thermo-fin and joist track in on top of the floor radiant panels. I feel the extruded aluminum transfers energy so efficiently you have to look at this application in depth to make the decision. Installing the plates on top of the sleepers is a very efficient heat transfer and requires very low temps, but because of the high heat transfer(extruded aluminum) causes hot spots where the plates are. Installing the plates under the sleepers may run slightly less efficient(a little higher supply temps) the added R-value disipates the heat transfer and creates a more comfortable and consistent finish floor temperature.
Outdoor reset and Heat pex mitigate any noise

ice4me

Thanks everyone for the continued input.

I did end up going with the Joist Trak plates on top of the sub-floor. The only snag so far was making sure the return bends would be at the same height as the sleepers (since the latter sits ~0.060" higher due to the HT plates). Since the sleepers are a sanded 3/4" plywood, they actually measure close to 23/32". My original plan was to use a true 3/4" plywood for the return bends, thus matching the combined height of the sleeper & HT plate; however, I could not find a consistent and good quality 3/4" plywood at any local lumber yards. So I ended up using the same 23/32" plywood for the return bends and shimming it up with Builder's Board (approximately 0.045" thick). I think it will be close enough. Worst case there might be some light blending with a sander.

Here's a quick peak at the current progress:

hot_rod

Nice looking work. What fills in the spaces for the hardwood to nail to? 3/4 ply?

Be sure the plates are fastened well or they could creak or pop. Are they screwed or nailed down?

ice4me

Yep, the same 3/4" sanded plywood used for the return bends will also be used for the sleepers (but without the Builder's Board underneath).

The plates are currently tacked down with roofing nails. My plan is to use a construction adhesive to glue the sleepers to the old sub-floor and then also screw them down thru the heat transfer plate flanges. This should make a nice tight sandwich. The glue will also help fill the small gap cause by the thickness of the plates.

hot_rod

sounds like a good plan, screw thru the entire assembly to keep it all tight and quiet.