Are These The Normal Sounds Of A New Burnham IN5 Steam Boiler

geoprell

I have a new gas conversion, but am used to the sounds of my old Weil-McLain 368 oil-fired burner were the only sounds I can remember was that of the burner motor itself when the burner was on.

Sounds Of My New Gas Boiler:
After the sounds of the electronic controls (mechanical turning of the vent damper and the "SNAPPING" sound of the gas valve), I then hear the volatility of water being boiled followed by the quieter sound of steam. It is at this point I begin to hear some sounds that I am concerned with.

Burner On:
When the steam is being created, I hear intermittent "CREAKING" and "CRACKLING" sounds in the base / burner area below the boiler sections. Is this just the normal sound of expansion in a gas boiler?

Burner Off:
When the burner turns off, I hear intermittent "SNAPS", "CRACKLES", "POPS", and "PINGS" during this cool down period in the base / burner area below the boiler sections. Is this just the normal sounds of contraction in a gas boiler?

Sounds:
The sounds are not loud or annoying, and you have to be in the area of the boiler to notice them. My only reason to bother to ask about them is I want to make sure their is nothing wrong with my new boiler.
The boiler came as a "Packaged Boiler" from National Grid.

I am guessing that I hear these sounds because of the design of a gas fired boiler versus a oil fired boiler. The gas - fired boiler has a open design for the burner "chamber", while I believe my old oil - fired boiler had the burner "chamber " within the boiler sections.

Appreciate any advice

Fred

It sounds like expansion/contraction noises. You'll get use to them and they will probably quiet down some as the boiler ages.

neilc

yeah, but just for fun, post some pictures of the boiler and header piping,
maybe a sketchy piping job is stretching things that don't want stretching.
and double checking,
this is a new boiler, converting the house to gas,
not just a new gas gun (conversion) hung on the old boiler , , ,?

New England SteamWorks

Send us pictures of the boiler install please.

steaminboston

Hi, I have a Burnham PIN6 and have the exact same noises happening at the same times and same location. My boiler was installed in July of 2016 and the noises have remained constant since then. I was first thinking it almost sounded like a drip noise but never saw any sign of moisture below in burner rack (but then starting thinking it could be small enough of a leak that it could be evaporating?)....until I saw this post, I was chalking this up to expansion/contraction and was beginning to write it off. BTW, my water consumption is about 75ozs/month during average winter conditions (30’s days, 20’s nights) (I believe Burnham recommends no more than .2 gallons/month usage so I’m over that by a factor of 3).

nicholas bonham-carter

Did they use a chemical cleaner such as “squick” after the installation, instead of skimming? If so, you may have a layer of calcium exoskeletons on the inside of your boiler, insulating the water from the flame. This may explain the strange noises you hear, but it won’t pay for an early boiler replacement.
It would be best to flush that sediment out so as to reduce any future problems.—NBC

steaminboston

In my case, unfortunately, I never skimmed but have flushed multiple times and have been using 1 Steamaster tablet for the last 6 months with no issues. (With the recent extreme cold weather in the NE, I noticed my water went to a dark purple/brown and pH went to 10.5-11 and it started surging, so I flushed 2 weekends in a row and back to normal now with light purple color with 1 tablet back in there). The ticking/creaking type noises almost seem like they’re coming from the sheetmetal surround at the base of the boiler....I don’t think I have a piping issue....I’ll post some pictures of mine.

steaminboston

Here you go....

JUGHNE

Boston, I find that very impressive.
Looks so good it is hard to poke a stick at anything....
But is there a skimming port installed?
What pressure does it run at?

Is your installer listed on the "find a contractor" here?

steaminboston

Thank you. No, there’s no skimming port installed....at the time of install, I was new to this and really didn’t know.
I keep setbacks to + - 2 degrees so I never cycle on pressure but I did bump it one day 4 degrees and noted that it cycled between 7ozs and 17ozs.
I made some changes since install...I switched 2 main vents to 2 Bigmouths and changed out all radiator vents to Vent-Rites and repacked all valves (but I still make up about 75 ozs/month)
My installer is a local residential plumber but was trained as a Local 537 pipefitter in his younger days (and my friend, his neighbor, is a local Burnham (US Boiler) Rep so he sized the boiler for me).....and I work for a local GC so I had a union insulator do the 1 1/2” insulation....just wish I could solve the water loss but maybe it’s ok.....I’ve seen all different ranges on this site.

JUGHNE

It is still pretty young and the plug for the skim port should come out fairly easy.....should.

steaminboston

One other change....if you noticed in one of the the “uninsulated” pictures that the returns were twinned together above the water line...after asking on this site, I asked my fitter to split them and drop them independently below the water level....he didn’t know and always did it that way....going forward, he’ll always do that now.

steaminboston

Agree....would be a good project after this season’s over.

JUGHNE

I was so impressed by the double drop headers I never noticed.
Sometimes that is a problem and sometimes not.....depends.
But separate drops eliminate any question.

How does this heat compared to the old system.

steaminboston

A lot quieter and a lot quicker.....from a cold (ambient) start, I have heat at all 12 radiators in about 15-18 minutes....I have all Vent-Rites set at about midway at 5.
I had a Repco (remember those?) that was 33 years old with a hole in it but was limping along through the finish line to get the MassSave Rebate of $1900 (had to be 30 years+ to get rebate)....bummer too because I had milli-volt control.
After splitting the returns, I timed the closing of the Bigmouths and there was almost a minute difference so it was good I did split them because the steam from the shorter main was closing both main vents at the same time.

lchmb

you said you'd like to solve water loss? How much and how fast are you losing water? Dont want to destroy that new boiler with make up water...

New England SteamWorks

steaminboston said:

One other change....if you noticed in one of the the “uninsulated” pictures that the returns were twinned together above the water line...after asking on this site, I asked my fitter to split them and drop them independently below the water level....he didn’t know and always did it that way....going forward, he’ll always do that now.

I agree with @steaminboston here. I've seen returns joined above the waterline that are fine. But I've seen just as many that cause no end to trouble, and once dropped below the waterline all was well.

And with all that nice pipework there is no question that your boiler needs to be skimmed. Oils will cause foaming and priming in the boiler. Combined with the returns joined above the waterline, I would say these two issues account for all of your concerns.

Water loss would be from your vents, main and radiator. Change them.

steaminboston

1st I have a PIN6 which I believe from memory holds about 9 gallons. I also measured and concluded that 1/2” of sight glass = about 40 ozs.
In a week of normal winter conditions (30’s day, 20’s night), I use about 1/4” in the sight glass which is about 20 ozs....like I said I have all brand new vents, repacked all radiator valves & no buried wet returns. The only recent thing that happened was surging caused by what I think: the pH got high, it foamed and I got wet steam (and Steamaster) up into the piping system and it flushed some crud out of the 80 year old radiators which landed in the boiler.

Fred

@steaminboston , That is a BEAUTIFUL install!

Fred

I have a 35 year old Burnham and when it shuts down, there are still some subtle contraction noises. They are always near the bottom rear of the boiler and its not a leak or drip. I only add water when I do a blowdown. It's just the nature of the beast.

steaminboston

Thanks NE Steamworks. I already split the returns apart....just need to maybe add the skim port....but since the install in July of 2016, I’ve flushed multiple times and believe I got most oil out...in fact, I extended out the 2 Bigmouths at a separate time with a couple of nipples and saw the oil come back immediately (by way of surging, tripping LWCO) and then I flushed it out and all was back to normal. I really believe the Steamaster tablets make a big difference (BTW, my trick to get Steamaster into boiler....I dissolve 1 tablet in a paper cup and inject through the 30PSI gauge port with one of those plastic disposable medicine syringes for babies you can pick up at Rite-Aid).
Thank you Fred....any opinions on water usage would be appreciated (it may be just how my system is).

steaminboston

Thanks Fred....thinking it was expansion/contraction like you said....not for nothing, it’s a very similar noise that you hear from radiators when they first get hot....like a ticking noise.

Fred

@steaminboston, that's about 2.5 quarts a month usage. If I had to guess, I would guess you have one or two radiator vents that aren't closing completely or a radiator valve or two that may be leaking around the packing.
I'm also suspect of the Burnham publication. .2 of a gallon is less than a quart a month. In the winter, that much can evaporate from vents (main and Radiator) opening and being open between heating cycles, especially right after a heating cycle when things are still hot.

steaminboston

Yes, .2 is about 25 ozs which really isn’t a lot. As far as vents, I did replace all my radiator vents along with the Bigmouths and repacked all the radiator valves. I did notice that when my Bigmouths close, there’s a little amount of condensation on the threads of the 5/8” opening but not thinking that would do it?
Your point about winter air got me thinking....I think that is the most plausible explanation especially that my cellar is a lot cooler and dryer/RH with the 1 1/2” insulation on the piping....there could be up to an 5-10 degree T difference now to the occupied space upstairs (my wife noticed the drop when doing the laundry)

Just a couple of side notes:
I asked my fitter why he didn’t install a skim port....he said that he’s had trouble over the last couple of years with it, skimming Burnham boilers for weeks and not getting all the oil out....he actually suspects that Burnham either changed the oil type or quantity or both.
We have a mutual friend that reps Burnham (US Boiler) for the South Shore of Massachusetts....I’m going to ask him about the oil/skimming theory and also the .2 gallon/month usage rate.

Danny Scully

Wow you really stole this thread @steaminboston , where are you @geoprell?

Fred

@steaminboston , I have said for years that Burnham boilers are very sensitive to any little bit of oil on the surface of the water. Quick skims have never been effective for my boiler. When I need a skim, I hook a garden hose up to a Tee I installed on the Pressure Relief Valve that I can take the plug out of and screw a 3/4" nipple into the Tee. I then fill the boiler until the the water starts to trickle out of that nipple, I slow the flow of water down until it is just a little trickle, I screw the garden hose onto the nipple and run the hose over to a floor drain and let it run like that over night. In the morning I remove the hose and button things back up and I'm good to go. Any minor little pipe fix or change on the system piping, except for new vents requires me to do a skim. Not sure what it is about the Burnham boiler and the sensitivity to even a little oil but I doubt it has anything to do with a process change at Burnham or in the casting/assembly process. As I said earlier, my boiler is 35 years old.

steaminboston

Yes sorry.....I was hoping @geoprell would jump back in about the boiler noise...

steaminboston

@Fred, I remember you saying that before and like I said, I just added (2) 2” nipple extensions to my Bigmouths and everything went south....but he’s been installing Burnhams forever (all he goes) and he swears somthing changed....

geoprell

Enjoy reading all of the comments. It is fine that my Post took on a life of its own. I learn a lot from the other comments.

As for the sounds of my original post, I am experimenting to see if their is any stress (stretching) from the wet return and riser connections.
I temporarily removed a 2" shim that is under the elbow of the wet return where it rises to the dry return (act as a support for the dry return), but it did not stop the sounds.
I am going to loosen the union in the riser out of the boiler next to see if when it is disconnected if the two parts are under stress. Will comment when I try it.

Attached are pictures.

Thanks again.

steaminboston

Thanks for posting the pictures, @geoprell.
Regarding the noises in the lower part of the boiler, like I said before, what you described is EXACTLY what I have. Our piping layouts are different enough that I really think it’s only expansion and contraction in that lower area....when you take the front cover off, there’s a lot of surrounding thin sheetmetal ripe for making noises....plus, as @Fred noted above, he still gets noises from his 35 year old Burnham.
Please let us know results when you try loosening that union.
Thanks

Fred

It's not the kind of noise that steel pipe makes when it expands/contracts. It is clearly a much more tinny sound. May be an exterior panel or a burner tube or the burner access panel. In any case, I think its not worth any effort to isolate. If you find and do something to fix one, it will move elsewhere. Take some screws out of the exterior skins, in the area of the noise and I bet the noise goes away. Then put the screws back in and enjoy your new steam boiler.
EDIT: Also check where any pipes go into the boiler. A boiler Panel may be rubbing against the pipe as it expands/contracts.