Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
In fairness to all, we don't discuss pricing on the Wall. Thanks for your cooperation.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Not enough heat from a SYSTEM 2000

netsurfernetsurfer Member Posts: 5
We installed a System 2000 in Feb of 2015. It replaced a Weil McLain (sp?) wet base tankless boiler.
We have not been able to get the room temperature up to 68 when it is cold (10 F or below) with this system.
We have 2 rooms that rely on heat from the other rooms and the old system handled it with no problems.
The system 2000 struggles to get the house to 64 when the thermostat is set to 72.

Here are my thoughts on the problem. Please let me know if this makes sense or give me some other ideas.
The nozzel is undersized limiting the fuel burn rate. The old system was oversized and the fuel orfice was selected for the volume of space to heat.

The circulators are not large enough. The old system had big (1/4 HP circulators) My thought is that the existing circulators cannot pump the water fast enough and the temp drop too big.

Another idea is that the boiler capacity is too small vs. the old system and and the water temp is too low to start with.

My installer's answer is to add more base board to the unheated rooms but if the old system worked why cannot mt $10000 system 2000 do the same job. It may be more efficient but it does not supply the required heating.

Thanks
Dick

Comments

  • AnthraciteEnergeticsAnthraciteEnergetics Member Posts: 47
    You got it. Enough BTUs from the fire, and hot enough water at high enough flow rate to get the energy from the fire into the house. It's that simple.

    You know what needs to be looked at. Increase water temp and/or firing rate before taking pipes apart. Since that's not a condensing boiler don't fret over running it hot.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 3,235
    All you need is an installer that know what he is doing. Not sure you have that if he doesn't know what's wrong.

    You mentioned 3 possible problems, boiler capacity, water temperature and water flow. It could be one problem it could be 2 or 3 problems.

    What is the water temperature in the boiler when it is trying to heat??

    We will start with that
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 937
    There's no option to raise the limit temp on the EK Manager.
    The limit varies depending on the input from the return water temp sensor.
    If the boiler was sized correctly (EK-1?) , there should be no problem heating better the the WM.
    Is the Manager blinking any codes?
  • netsurfernetsurfer Member Posts: 5
    The red LED bars never get to 160 F 120 to 140 is about max and the furnace runs almost continually. It go to a balmy 27 F outside today and the house did get to 69...bearable. The Control Manager is not blinking any codes. As long as it stays 25 +F outside it seems to be able to keep up. My oil co knew what ws there before they installed the System 2000. I am not home till April but my son is at the house. I do not know what size boiler they installed but theyare a huge regional company on the east coast. They stopped installing these systems due to parts availability. Am tempted to replace it with a cast iron wet base Weil McLain.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 3,235
    @netsurfer , system 2000 is good equipment. The owner sometimes follows posts on the wall here. I would contact tech support at the factory and report that you are unhappy. maybe they can get or recommend someone to look at it for you
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 937
    > @netsurfer said:
    > Am tempted to replace it with a cast iron wet base Weil McLain.
    If you're going in a different direction, at least look at a triple pass boiler. And I'll take the EK off your hands for $100 cash money.
  • hvacgeek1989hvacgeek1989 Member Posts: 1
    It's not the boiler's fault it sounds like incorrect installation or application or possibly too low of a firing rate. It would be interesting to see how it's piped, A competent dealer / installer should be able to correct the problem depending on which model you have. Energy kinetics boilers are rated at many different firing rates. The have very helpful tech support available to techs and installers.
  • newagedawnnewagedawn Member Posts: 351
    junk it
  • Robert O'BrienRobert O'Brien Member Posts: 2,956
    > @hvacgeek1989 said:
    > It's not the boiler's fault it sounds like incorrect installation or application or possibly too low of a firing rate. It would be interesting to see how it's piped, A competent dealer / installer should be able to correct the problem depending on which model you have. Energy kinetics boilers are rated at many different firing rates. The have very helpful tech support available to techs and installers.

    Ditto
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 1,739

    junk it

    Little rude, don't you think? Please be a little more professional.
    steve
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 937
    No reason why a properly sized System 2000 EK Frontier shouldn't perform even better than your old boiler.
    Boiler temp is regulated by the return water temp sensor through the Manager. Possible fault in the sensor? High limit (top left, near back of the boiler) is set to 215?
    Possible slab leak?
  • netsurfernetsurfer Member Posts: 5
  • netsurfernetsurfer Member Posts: 5
    Here are some pictures of the installation. Not sure how helpful they are. The room temp is now up to 69F after running almost continuously for 4 days and the outside temp getting all the way up to 28F.
    I am collecting all comments so I have some hard data available when I talk to my oil company. Thanks to everyone and keep the comments coming. I like to be somewhat knowledgeable about a topic if I mam going to get into a technical discussion so I can asses the validity of what i am being told / sold!!


  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 3,235
    Job looks nice and neat. Usually (at least most of the time) an installation that looks good will work well because the installer took the time to do it right.....but there's always exceptions
  • netsurfernetsurfer Member Posts: 5
    I emailed Energy Kinetics about my problem and I have to say that they actually gave me some "customere service" as it was intended. I got to speak with an actual person who at least understood my question and spoke English....not Chinglish.
    I got a reply to my later email with in a couple of hours with two possible solutions.....set option switch 9 to on which increases the return temp by 20F and increase the orifice from .85 GPM to 1.0 GPM. I changed the switch position and that seemed to help alot. I did not have an orifice laying around so will leave that to the tech. This was one of the few customer service contacts that actually met my expectations.
  • lchmblchmb Member Posts: 2,609
    I'd see if the switch solves your problem... If not a nozzle can be done in short order... Energy Kinetics is a top notch company with good people... I've had them help me out many times over the years and they know their boiler...
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 937
    Calling it an orifice and not a nozzle, means you should leave everything to the tech.
    Or maybe you were talking Chinglish.
  • teablenderteablender Member Posts: 3
    I have a System 2000 also and am having the same problem. I turn the thermostat up from 60 degrees at night to 68 in the A.M and during the cold spell the last few days, the temp in the house didn't get above 64 - 65 degrees. That's with the circulator running 24/7 and the burner coming on for 4 - 5 mins, shutting off and coming on again 9 - 10 mins later and on and on. I now leave the thermostat at 65 degrees 24/7 and, by running constantly, the unit eventually got the house up to that temp. (I have a 24' X 34' cape with 7' ceilings, insulation, and new energy efficient windows).
    I'm thinking of setting dip switch 9 to On. It's described as supplying higher temperature water to under-radiated heating zones (not my problem) or during very cold weather (my problem). This setting is described as "170 / 155 F with SmartBoost to 190 / 175 F as required" (the numbers are degrees). Anyone know what this means and whether or not I should try it?
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 7,513
    Ah... an 8 degree setback in the weather we had been having this past week? That's at least 5 degrees too much. It's a wonder it recovered at all.

    The cycling which you are seeing indicates you do not have enough radiating capacity; this may not be "your" problem (though I'm not sure why -- it's your house), but it surely is one of the main problems. Higher temperature water from the smart boost will help, but at the expense of efficiency of the boiler.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • RogerRoger Member Posts: 60
    Thanks for all your comments - sorry for the delay in my response.

    When a zone (or house) is not warm enough or not keeping up with the thermostat set point, the first question we like to ask is if the burner is running 24/7 without stopping. If the burner runs continuously, this means the boiler cannot output enough BTUs. If the burner ever cycles off, then the radiation cannot take out all the BTUs (heat) the boiler is making; this means the radiation is "under sized" for the load. As it gets colder out, the load increases, so the radiation may be adequate at one outdoor temperature, but not enough when it's colder.

    By far the most common situation is not enough radiation during cold weather (the burner cycles on and off). To increase the heat output in the radiation, you can turn ON option switch 9 (SmartBoost in newer systems) as mentioned above - this raises the boiler operating temperature and boosts the output of the radiation. This has a minimal impact on System 2000 boiler efficiency as much of the savings comes from the thermal purge at the end of the call. If this is still not enough, adding more fin tube or radiation is a solution. Reducing or eliminating night setback when it is coldest out can help as well as it takes less energy to maintain temperature in a building than to increase the temperature.

    If the burner does not turn off during the continuous thermostat call, this means that the radiation can take out all of the BTUs that he boiler can make. This is very unusual, although increasing the firing rate within the rating of the boiler is a solution.

    I hope this helps keep more homes warm and cozy during our "bomb cyclone" weather pattern and future cold spells.

    Roger
  • teablenderteablender Member Posts: 3
    That's an interesting observation. The existing registers were adequate for 40 years. Can you help me understand why you feel insufficient registers is the problem?
    Thanks
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 3,235
    @teablender @Roger explained it perfectly. Don't blame the boiler. Do a heat loss on your home, install enough baseboard to offset that heat loss. Install a boiler that matches the heat loss. It's as simple as that. Skip a step? Then it may not work.

    As an example in my area (western MA) we design for a 0deg outdoor temp. Last Sunday night it hit 21 below 0 (first time since 1961)

    You don't size a heating system for an event that happens once every 55 years so during extreme weather the indoor temperature will slip. System 2000 is good equipment if selected and installed right
  • RogerRoger Member Posts: 60
    Thank you @EBEBRATT-Ed and @teablender.

    @teablender, you mentioned you might try turning on option switch 9 in your post. This allows the boiler to run hotter which will boost the heat output of the baseboard. Please try this as it can increase the baseboard heat output by up to 25% or over 100 BTU/ft of fin tube. It is possible that your prior boiler was set to run at higher temperatures, having a similar effect on increasing the output of the baseboard as option switch 9. I suspect this will work well in your case as you mentioned in your post that you can maintain 65°F with switch 9 off.

    For reference, some site specific conditions can reduce the output of the baseboard. If the louvers are closed, plush new wall to wall carpeting and padding is installed, dust builds up on the fin tube, or furniture or anything else blocks or reduces the airflow across the fins, it can substantially reduce heat output.

    As an additional point of reference regarding the sizing of your particular boiler, since the burner fires for 5 minutes and is off for 10 minutes, that means it is only on for 1/3 of the time. Effectively it has 3 times the capacity as your connected baseboard so the firing rate is not the problem.

    Best,
    Roger
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 7,513
    @teablender -- you have the answers to your problems up there. Before the change, you were able to heat things up as you wanted. Therefore there is enough radiation. The new boiler only runs about a third of the time. Therefore there is enough boiler.

    What's left? Water temperature. Find -- or have your installer find -- some way to bring the water temperature up. It's in the controls for that boiler. Radiation output increases almost linearly with temperature.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • teablenderteablender Member Posts: 3
    Wow!! Thank you all for these very informative comments. I very much appreciate your input and I have a better understanding of how things work. I did also send this issue to Energy Kinetics in an email. The regional rep has already replied and we will talk soon. Because of your advice and comments I will hopefully have a more knowledgeable conversation with the rep. Will post any recommendations/results when I have them.

    Of course it's 45 degs here today so I will have to wait for another cold spell to test any recommendations.
    Thanks again.
  • RogerRoger Member Posts: 60
    You're welcome. All of our territory managers are very knowledgeable and I'm sure he will help to find out more about your specific application and explore solutions with you and your heating professional.

    Roger
Sign In or Register to comment.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!