Two B&J Big Mouth Vent "Failures"?

jch1

Good evening,

I've been trying to lock down the issue of rapidly decreasing water levels in my boiler for q while. I previously had three Big Mouth vents and two Gorton 2s on an antler, with one BM going straight up from the tee and the remaining four vents extending out horizontally therefrom. I realized that the BM directly on the tee is not closing. I removed this vent and plugged the tee, and ordered a new BM. during this time, the water level appeared to be more consistent.

Upon receiving the new BM vent on Tuesday, I took the plug out and put on the new one. This morning, I checked everything, and there was a terrible chemical smell in my basement. I called the fire department, and they came to check for all the gas lines and couldn't find any leaks. I then purchased a 5/8" allen wrench, and tightened everything in the vent and put it back on the tee (with the blue pipe dope). It's not that smell, by the way.

I just checked again, and it's still leaking. The other two vents closed after a few minutes. Could I have just received two faulty vents? Do I need to move this vent onto an elbow as well? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

acwagner

What size tapping is this antler connected to? That's a lot of venting capacity.

Have you tried swapping the "faulty" vent to another port on your antler to see if it's the port or the vent? Are you sure it's not closing or is it leaking from the union or connection to the fitting?

Debris can get blown into them. Or, if you have hammer that first port will be the one that is most at risk to damage. If you have hammer, I wouldn't put another vent on that location until you fix the hammering.

Sailah

Can you take a picture of the install? It's hard to comment on what might be going on without seeing it.

There were some older Big Mouth vents that had insufficient fill in them but we seemed to have culled most by this summer. If they were recently purchased, say from summer to now, they were part of the new discs that were checked thoroughly. Up until about 6 weeks ago, I checked and tested almost every single vent that left the factory. And I trained the new person at B&J on how to do them.

A vent would fail if somehow the disc fill had been compromised, this is unlikely in the short time you have had it.

It could also fail if dirt/debris/rust somehow was lodged in the seating surface. This would create a slight leak. We've always encouraged users to put the vent as high as possible to reduce the possibility of water and debris from getting to the vent.

When those guidelines are followed we seem to have really good reliability. When it's not followed we seem to have many more of these issues. And when I have 2 suspected failures from the same customer that's when I start asking about the manner in which they were installed.

I always took back any vents no questions asked. I would always disassemble to check o ring integrity etc. When I would reassemble and test on our steam rack, 95% of the time they would seal 100%. Which lead me to suspect there was something about the environment in which they were installed. The only vents I took back that were truly failed were part of the bad disc issue we discovered earlier this year.

B&J is aware of your issue and I know they will take care of you. My concern is that whatever caused your failure is probably going to "fail" the new ones unless it's corrected.

Let's see some pics and can take from there.

jch1

Sure. Unfortunately, these are the best pictures I took last night. The install is very simple. There's an approx. 4-6" nipple that extends from the return (single pipe steam) that's connected to a sideways tee. The top of the tee is where the "problematic" vents were, then there are two additional tees for two BM, a tee for a Gorton 2, and a reducing elbow for a Gorton 2.

jch1

In that last picture, the pipe in the foreground is not for steam. The antler rests on this pipe to actually create a slight decline in the direction of the return.

Also, i should note that I have no idea when I purchased the "old" vent, but I purchased the new vent off of amazon just this week.

Canucker

Can you get some pics from farther back? We'll need to see how your pipes tie into that vent antler

jch1

Okay, I went through old pictures, and this is the best I could find. From 2015, with different vents on there, but you get the idea for the location, right?

Sailah

Can you visibly see steam coming from the vent when you don't have the mirror there? When I used to test those, our system had lots of water in it being 2 pipe and much higher pressure. Plus our piping ran downhill so all the water went to vent. I'd always get a drop or two on the threads, which would flash off as the vent got up to steam temp. The best way I found to check was to shine a small flashlight perpendicular to outlet. Any leaking steam was easy to see.

I wonder if you have a bit of debris since it's the first vent in your setup?

Possible to put some type of screen in there?

jch1

Yeah, there was visible and audible steam coming out of there the entire time I was down there while the boiler was producing steam, which was about 15 or 20 minutes. I was hoping my phone would also capture the steam escaping, but no luck.

On top of that, there was the odor issue. I'm pretty convinced that it's being caused by the vent or the tee, which is strange. I plugged that opening last night, and had no odor (or reduced steam level) this morning.

jch1

I should also mention that I appreciate everyone's help. I'm not upset with B&J at all. My thought is to keep the plug where it currently is and extend the antler out to accommodate the BM vent. Though, if it's failing, that won't do me any good.

acwagner

I don't have the charts on venting with me, but if memory serves me right, your vent capacity exceeds the 3/4" tapping that antler is connected to. Do you see a change in system performance with one big mouth off? I know it doesn't solve your problem per se, but in theory you could leave that one problematic location plugged because the remaining vents still exceed the tapping capacity. I guess the risk is whatever is causing the failure might just move down the line to the next port.

Fred

@Sailah , is there any possibility that with that high volume vents on one arm that that first vent stays cool enough, from condensate that it simply does not close or it closes and then reopens? It would seem that that first vent would be the first to close, under normal circumstances.

Sailah

Fred said:

@Sailah , is there any possibility that with that high volume vents on one arm that that first vent stays cool enough, from condensate that it simply does not close or it closes and then reopens? It would seem that that first vent would be the first to close, under normal circumstances.

I would completely agree, the first vent seems most likely to close. I suspect debris got blown up into the seating surface and it's preventing the vent from closing. But it's hard to tell that from here.

I also agree that the venting capacity of the antler is probably overkill but that still doesn't change that there is a vent that isn't closing.

Regarding odor that's a first I've never heard of that. The vent is 100% Italian brass. The oring is genuine Parker silicone and rated to much higher temps than steam would ever get to. The RTV sealant that secures the O ring is Loctite 40464 and rated to 400F. I've literally tested 1000s of these and probably sniffed more than anyone and I've never detected an odor coming form the vent. I suspect that issue is unrelated.

I'm sure B&J will make it right however you decide to go.

jch1

Thanks, guys. So you're suggesting that I don't really need the third BM vent at all, and I should just keep it plugged and use two BM, and two G2s? To be honest, that appears to have fixed the problem, though one radiator doesn't heat up now (I can just put a different vent on there, so no big deal).

Yeah, the odor was bizarre. Maybe I will do a good skim this weekend to see if that helps. Like I mentioned, it was bad enough to warrant us calling the Fire Dept to check for gas leaks, which there were none.

Sailah

Well I don't want take the easy way out and avoid the issue of the vent not sealing, but you've got a ton of venting there already. If it we're my system, I'd repipe that antler to give the first vent the best chance to not be in the direct line of fire.

Take the vent with an issue, remove cap. You'll need a big wrench, it's 1 3/4". Inspect the oring and wipe it with your finger. Take the cap with disc and immobilize the plug with your thumb. Hold it to your ear and shake it. You should heard a liquid sloshing around. If you do the disc is good. Reassemble and test. Or send it back and get a new one but my concern is that you seem to have repeated failure right at that spot.

acwagner

Well, leaving the vent off is like going to the doctor and saying "it hurts when I do this" and the doctor says "then don't do that."

A BM vent is rated at 3.6 CFM and a Gorton 2 is 2.2 CFM at 3oz of pressure. An open 3/4" pipe is 9.5 CFM. That's what the numbers say. That said, it's interesting you're seeing a change in the balance of your system by removing one, so it may not be the best option. I suppose the trade off is you'll have to adjust your radiator venting strategy to compensate if you leave it off.

If you find out that debris is the issue, you can look into adding a "Y-strainer" to catch the debris. I don't have any personal experience or knowledge with them, but there are several posts on this site about doing it. Others can weigh in on the effectiveness of them.

Some systems are just prone to debris causing problems. On my own system, for example, I've had problems in the past with the my radiator vents getting jammed with debris.

gerry gill

smell would have to be something in the boiler water i would suspect.

clammy

i would say it s the location ,replace that tee with 2 90s and make a swing joint to pitchthe vent line back to the main ,that location is exposing the vent to alot of wet steam and consensate ,I wonder are your steam mains and near boiler piping insulated if not then this could be part of your issues It takes alot of btu s to heat uninsulated pipe and it makes balancing a issue and challenging .peace and good luck clammy

New England SteamWorks

Like so:

gerry gill

Now that's class!!!!!!!!

jch1

I don't think I have that much vertical clearance, but I will try something like that!

jch1

Oh, and yes, the near boiler piping is all well insulated.

jch1

Two interesting discoveries. on the recently-purchased vent, i took the cap off, shook, and.... no noise at all. I don't hear any liquid moving around or anything whatsoever.

On the second vent (the older one), upon removing the cap, the interior of the vent appears to be covered in soot or carbonation. Upon shaking this one, I hear solid particles moving about. no liquid. Also notably, there is a large drip stain that would suggest maybe the fluid leaked out at some point.

Sailah

That stain is just the flux from soldering. The one on the left looks like it may have had it's O ring dislodged? Hard to see from the pic but looks like it. I'd speak with B&J and ask for those to be swapped out. The one on the right is easily fixable with a new disc, but the one on the left, to me, is too far gone to save. Easiest to just get 2 new ones at this point.

The black is simply the brass oxidizing. Totally normal.

It's frustrating to see those discs without fill. When I was there I shook every one as it came in from manufacturer. It's definitely an issue I uncovered last year and I thought was fixed with their new welding process. Looks like a few are still slipping through the cracks.

I'll speak to B&J separately so they know this is still happening. Even 1% failure is too much.

jch1

I feel dumb having to ask this, but how exactly does one install a union? It seems like they have three parts. Looking at @New England SteamWorks picture, would I thread one part onto the antler, and the other two parts onto the vertical nipple?

Paul48

The only "dumb" question, is, the one not asked. To answer your question...yes. One side of the fitting has a "ball". The other has a "socket", and they are drawn together with a nut. They are a mated pair, called a ground joint.

jch1

Thanks, @Paul48 ! One more question. Does it matter which side of the nut the ball and socket are on? As in, is the union directional?

I ordered the union and a Y-strainer, so I'll put them on at the same time.
Thanks again!

Paul48

It's directional, only in that one side of the fitting has the threads for the nut. It doesn't matter how you install it.