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combustion analyzer fieldpiece

keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
Anyone know if these are decent enough for a HO to give his modcon a check after annual burner an HX cleanings? seems like less than the cost to have someone come and I have just done my first tear down and cleaning even with the retarded fastener locations wasn't hard to clean up.Im in HVAC airside so comfortable enough to do this but if i were average owner and found out my "high efficiency boiler" needed $600 a year checkups id be pissed.
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Comments

  • Leon82Leon82 Member Posts: 448
    edited December 4
    From what I've read with that one you replace the O2 sensor instead of calibrating it. Ithink every year
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    yes the sensors are disposable says 2 years doesnbt say if thats with cont use or if once a year use it last forever
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 310
    O2 sensors go bad where used or not. They are always sensing O2 even when not running.
    Without CO can't guarantee safety.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Thank you I wonder though can you assume CO levels are within range (<150 ppm) if you have CO2 and O2 dialed in to spec. At least in regard to combustion tuning.

    Im not really worried about it leaking Co since its only 12 equivalent feet up and out sidewall all cpvc with centrotherms lube sealer its a tight flue not home depot snaplock jambed in an old chimney deal. its kept clean good water no HX deposits found.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 310
    Those are assumption made in Europe but the only sure way is to measure. Too many other mechanical issues can cause CO besides just fuel air mixture.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    can i calculate it from temp and co2?
    factory approved tech wants $600 to analyze and tune. im not paying that every year im not paying that even once. god knows what he wants to clean the HX and burner wouldn't say in advance NYC prices but still so I did the cleaning already. jst trying to figure out cost benefit to a much more expensive analyzer that will be used once a year after maintenance. Guess ill just have to take my chances. wish someone had said MODCONS not only cost three times as much wear out twice as fast while churning through parts that are twice as much and need $1000 a year check up
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 1,052
    You forgot about efficiency...
    :lol:
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    Take a look at the UEi C20 Combustion Analyzer.

    It does CO and CO2 and has a claimed 10-year life expectancy for the sensor.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    uei looks pretty good different technology but Co included for less than half what a co fieldpiece now costs. and sensors are 110 every other year or so vs 5 yr warranty. also like their theory on why nox filters not all that. damn ordered the other one yesterday. I could return to amazon but how important is the co to tuning properly is what i cant seem to figure out everyone focus on safety more than tuning.
  • IronmanIronman Member Posts: 3,750
    Why would you need a combustion analysis every year? If the fuel/air ratio, draft and gas pressure haven't been changed, the combustion numbers should be the same. Cleaning it should only help to achieve this.

    I've yet to see an I/O manual that requires a combustion analysis after commissioning.

    Somebody correct me if they know of one.
    Bob Boan







    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    edited December 6
    @ ratio
    yeah efficiency but that boils down to cost and when you factor in all the costs i mention wheres efficiency? if youre into global warming BS fuggetaboutit not buying. to me efficiency is what it costs over the long run to heat the building.

    Put a lot of upfront money into fancier boiler and system to now find that's not the end of it. now i can probably do all this myself being an HVAC mechanic but if i was avg HO Id be furious when after year one i was told ( not one of 5 plumbers i called ever heard of combustion analysis and the factorys recommended one wants $600 to do that, but wont do it until first doing the cleaning etc which he wont quote in advance. so since i know and you know cleaning takes 2-3 hours and analysis ten minutes its likely a thousand dollars a year to average homeowner, and he will have no idea if hes getting quality work. So maybe inefficient running, parts and early unit replacement on top of that. yes sure i know most of the guys on here can do it all properly but youre not average plumbers any more than i am average homeowner. i sit in job meetings all day with MEs, leeds consultants, architects,project managers and 20 forcement like myself i have a clue what to look for most Ho have no idea

    My suggestion is these things need internal combustion analyzers and auto adjustment and it all read out on screen and into factory through internet for troubleshooting, furthermore they have to be constructed so service is HO or avg plumber friendly and takes 30 minutes not 2-3 pro hours. There was no excuse for all the **** chinese hardware in hard to reach places that you have to make your own toolsto remove then replace the hardware with american steel that wont strip because its crap and not sized to spec. why does a soup can burner with a mesh wall cost $200 and all the gaskets designed to tear. for $4500 it should be a bullet proof and not need adjusting . The boilers exactly one year old and i find the manual rev A i have is now outdated TEN revisions now rev J. it came shipped with CO2 at 8.5 which turns out is now after a year of dissembling and evasion better at 9.2 which is likely why i will need a new burner and igniter flame sensor gaskets and heat shield next year assuming i can get through this year with just the cleaning. did i mention i spent a month chasing a noise that was their cond float glued with a paper backed sticky causing flue gas to blast through cond discharge after the paper disolved in cond. Meantime i repiped my discal air and took the entire venting apart to trace the cause on their rec.. Lochinvar is not helpful and visibly resentful because their conxus instructions shipped with unit were also not up to date and made for previous models and though i made several clarification call prior to work still caused a board to short then turns out they had a bad set of reversed wire harnesses for it which shorted another board so they ate two boards but cant quite bring themselves to say sorry its our fault, even though they shipped the stuff free because they know its their fault they are still sullen and resentful so are defensive when i ask for information about tune, they wont admit this is a common problem i know 3 of 3 units with same comb issues most worse.
    sorry Im really fed up at this point and not measured.
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 1,052
    @keyote I'm messing with you, man. I know that there's a lot of unspoken $$$ involved in modcons, and in efficiency in general. I suspect that factoring in all the costs, hidden, pecuniary, and not, the true cost is about the same and more closely tied to comfort than fuel usage. But by and large only one way signals the correct value.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    edited December 6
    @Ironman really - oh you mean yes at commissioning but not post commissioning after a service. well i borrowed one because i thought that too but since the manual has changed the range and the range was quite wide and is still quite wide and still has no altitude etc correction to annotate the wide range and since the 8.5 was within the range and still within the range but has now in a year developed faults i need to redo before i ruin the unit with their bad recommendations. I mean 8-10.5 thats like the range of any gas appliance anywhere in the past 75 years could you be less specific and its shipped 8,5 so i leave it and within a year its crapped out.
    Anyway there i go again. I dont know from what i have been reading it seems not in the manual but on the internet to be a recommended practice as part of an annual,and it kind of makes sense if a burner for instance begins despite annual blow outs to accumulate deposits ? IDK If you are a tech and already have the equip i would say it shouldn't be a big deal to check it out after service and if it wasnt incredibly expensive i would pay for that or maybe im a cheapskate ar just poor but i cant see spending that and having to trust someone did it right that might be the biggest part my lifes experience is you cant trust anyone, you can only learn enough to not have to trust them but be able to know they are good. I dont trust this boiler anymore i want to at least annually test it i want to know how long before it really needs to be blown out again or have the burner replaced etc. i dont trust lochinvar at all anymore
    The irony is I really really wanted to love this boiler was very proud of all its fancy cutting edge tech and what i thought was a deserved premium price now i think its all questionable
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    keyote said:

    ...how important is the co to tuning properly is what i cant seem to figure out ...

    I can't speak for other mod-con installs, but on my HTP UFT-80W tuning only involves (after confirming correct gas pressure) measuring CO and CO2 and making adjustments based on those two gasses.





  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Thanks rob the loch manual seems to only ask for numbers on the CO2 and O2 in the box then sorta in small type seems as an afterthought to mention that CO will be below 150ppm in aprop installed unit. I am not qualified to interpret whether the CO measurment is kind of a given once you get the other number correct which makes sense since there is only a way to adjust the other numbers.
    regarding the gas a manometer is another tool i dont have and am thinking i cn get away without since nyc gas is pretty uniform and my main piping is 1- 1/5 and first tee 3/4 off the meter think its safe to assume im good have you ever found NYC gas to be a problem
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    IDK maybe just pay the danegeld to their certified techs and sue lochinvar
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Ratio lol got me Im really gettable today frustrated toooo much coffee lol ill return the damn field piece and get the UEI amazon can eat it
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    ^ not to make your day worse Keynote....

    I bought the UEi C20 because my boiler only calls for CO and CO2 measurements.

    If you need CO2 and O2 measurements the UEi C20 is not going to work for you... it only measures CO and CO2.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    edited December 6
    That may explain why i was not convinced i had done it right with a borrowed uei at commish. the CO2 seemed easily understood, the second number .016 seemed weird for what I thought was O2, i assumed i was to add a decimal or something, but since it was way under the 3.5-6.55 O2 i didnt worry and concentrated on the CO2 which was the only thing you can really adjust on the valve.

    now i think that .016 was the PPM of CO which would also be a good number, a very good number for CO. i thought since the guy i borrowed the uei from had same boiler i figured it was my inexperience with the analyzer.

    Hmm are you sure it doesnt "calculate" O2, because if not then youre right i probably know my CO number and its good, and really do need to use the fieldpiece to make sure my O2 is good and to adjust my Co2 which of course might change everything LOLOLOL
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 1,052
    CO2 and O2 are IIRC convertable. Pretty sure I've seen a table that laid them both out on the curve, but my google-fu is failing me now.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Thaks ratio been trying to study up on this in meantime, i get both uei and Fieldpiece have opposite gas sensors and calculate the other but CO is separate. from robs comment think i know what my CO was last year at commish .016 dont know if that would change if i adjusted CO2 from 8.5 o 9.2 or how much it might change ill keep reading and watching youtube thanks for the article.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 310
    In combustion you are always making 99% or more of the CO2 of the fuel. But unless you know the btus of the fuel that can vary 2%. Though unlikely to see it ( I have seen it twice) O2 does exist on the fuel rich side of the curve. O2 is always accurate at any btu or altitude, whereas CO2 can be a guess. You rarely increase or decrease the amount of CO2 you are making. You are just diluting it more or less.

    Efficiency: 7.5% - O2 Net Flue Temp - 350 degrees.

    Deduct 14% latent heat, 7.5% O2 and 11.5% Flue T = 33% loss
    Actual efficiency = 67% not 80%
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    keyote said:

    Hmm are you sure it doesn't "calculate" O2...

    Pretty sure... but if you can calculate O2 from CO2 then you're in luck.





  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    captainco
    if i used the throttle screw to raise my CO2 from 8.5 to 9.2, if i understand you that is an estimated number CO2 from the actual oxygen number. OK the analyzer i ordered can confirm those numbers. the nat gas is high quality NYC i can prob find the BTU online.
    but this new analyzer i ordered cant tell me the CO. I previously used a different analyzer that could and said CO was .016 will that change when i change CO2 from 8.5 to 9.2 ?and can i calculate it without measuring it ? or is it likely to go over the 150 ppm spec?
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    rob it seems the two units both do CO2 and O2 but each actually measures different ones and calculates the other. only the uei also has a CO sensor
    since i borrowed an UEi last year I think what i thought was O2 was really CO and so i know it and so if i just use the Feild peice in the mail to get CO2 and O2 i should be good unless CO changes which Im guessing it will and wonder if it can be predicted rather than measured
  • BoonBoon Member Posts: 190
    edited December 6
    CO was .016

    .016 was definitely not the CO. That analyzer only provides CO readings to 1ppm accuracy. And it calculates the O2.

    DIY'er ... ripped out a perfectly good forced-air furnace and replaced it with hot water & radiators.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Yeah youre right i was thinking parts per thousand but that was the number i thought was the O2 but it seemed way to little for O2 at the time i just figured I was an idiot which turns out to be correct wonder wha that number was
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    The UEi C20 analyzer may internally use a O2 cell based detector, but the end user can only see CO and CO2 results on it's display.
    No way for us to get O2 results from the C20 unless you can calculate it from the displayed CO2 results.

    UEi does offer a few models that display O2 readings, but they're more expensive than the entry level C20...
    http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/uei/pdfs/combustion-meters_datasheet.pdf
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    edited December 6
    actually in my text to you at time i say im using "CO2/CO" setting and say my reading is CO2 08.5 and O2 016 so Im mistaken about the decimal place but I was expecting the O2 number to be 2.1-6.6 like the manual said so 016 seemed wrong somehow.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Thanks for clarifying that the c20 is still going to be missing one of the three that wasnt clear in the amazon ad
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Boon Looking at the amazon ads photo of your uei085EOS that I used, it shows it on the "CO2/CO" setting and reading CO2 %06.3 COp 011so i guess i was in fact not reading O2 but reading COp which i assume is CO and it was 016 ppm
    does that make sense? werent we supposed to also make sure O2 was between 2.1 - 6.6% was that on another screen i never looked at
  • BoonBoon Member Posts: 190
    Makes sense. I don’t remember anything about the O2.
    DIY'er ... ripped out a perfectly good forced-air furnace and replaced it with hot water & radiators.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    Coefficient of performance?
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 310
    The C20 does measure CO2 and calculates the O2 assuming the CO2 of the gas is 11.8%. If the CO2 is different, the O2 calculation would be off. The C20 does read CO. Reducing the O2 and increasing the CO2 reading from 8.5 to 9.2 could change the CO more than 150ppm. It has to do with the design of the burner which can be slightly different from one to another. It is not a perfect world. CO may not change at all or it could change a lot, which is why CO needs to be measured.
    Again, we are not making more CO2 , just diluting it with less air. The burner decides how much air it needs not us and CO is the key.
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    thanks cap
    Co needs to be remeasured after an adjustment figured it might have to be.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 310
    Excellent!
  • keyotekeyote Member Posts: 629
    edited December 6
    so cap Thinking i should order the UEi c20 and return the Fieldpiece when it gets here, its only a $90 dif
    however Im a bit concerned that the Lochinvar 085 manual gives a box with the CO2 range (8-10.5) and the O2 (2.1-6.6) range then below mentions a CO maximum <150ppm indicative of good install. It seems from the way they present it they are even more concerned with O2 than CO, but thats just my impression as a novice.And Not to say im not now convinced CO is very important, only that O2 might be as well.

    Now You said the UEi c20 will actually calculate the O2 "assuming the CO2 of the fuel is 11.8% " Im confused by this statement is that 11.8% a standard % in nat gas? , or did you mean no more than 11.8% ?, because Im now told by lochinvar their target for CO2 is now 9.2-9.5 on this unit. but i dont think thats the same as what you were talking about % in fuel itself not in flue gas after combustion.
    In short will the UEIc20 give me all three numbers, or am i worrying about the O2 number and neednt

    I guess i might as well also ask can i do this and assume NYC gas is ok or must i also pick up an manometer
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 310
    On induced draft equipment air is mostly fixed and non-adjustable. So fuel is the only adjustment. I teach that the CO should normally be below 100ppm but a few ppm over isn't bad. You just adjust the gas and watch the CO reading. When the CO starts to increase rapidly, above 100 ppm then you have gone too far and need to back off. Once this is done you have maximized the CO2 or minimized the O2 to the best it can be. It could be higher than 9.5% or lower than 9.2%, but that is up to the burner. The field is quite different from a lab.

    Years ago a technical article ran in Contracting Business Magazine that stated the best way to determine a certain boiler was operating correctly, was to sniff the flue cap for an odor. I think we should trust ourselves and our equipment.
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