Caleffi Zone Controls

ChasMan

Hi, I want to control a couple of zone manifolds with pumps as well as an Indirect with it's own pump.

So we have DHW, And a two zone manifold, and a three zone manifold.

Do I need two 3 zone controls or do I need a three and a four?

I was going to do a master / slave and have DHW priority but I am worried that Zone 1 on the slave might initiate priority.

Leon82

There should be a dip switch to turn on the priority feature with it off it runs like a regular zone. At least on the taco ones there are.
Taco makes a 6 zone one of which you can set for dhw priority

ChasMan

Thanks, Yes, I have a butchered up TACO 6 zone which I was using at one point, It can only control one pump though so I ditched it in favor of a 3 Zone TACO relay box and some end switch hacks.

In this image from the Caleffi Wiring brochure, It shows the master slave. Priority is set to on on the master but off on the slave.

The secondary pump outputs are supposed to power on when there is a local call for heat on that control. I want to use that feature. Have priority controlled by the master and off on the slave. I just want to confirm that the secondary pump will go off on priority like the system pump on the master does.

ChasMan

Here is a diagram of what I want that I know is possible using the Caleffi controllers. I just need to add DHW with Priority to it. I can make this work by not using the master / slave and transmitting priority from one control to the other by daisy chaining the thermostats but that wastes a zone so I would have to by a 3 zone and a 4 zone rather than just two three zone controls.

hot_rod

Wherever do you want to tie in the DHW? With a separate pump p, or as a zone?

The control has 3 pump outputs and depending on how you pipe the tank in, you can select the status of the priority on the pumps, either one pump runs if the indirect has a single pump for instance that flows the boiler and tank, or run two pumps if a boiler and indirect pumped to run together. We added that 3rd relay and status selection to allow either piping.

In the first drawing that you show only one pump needs to run on DHW call. If the tank was on the opposite side of the sep, then a boiler pump and indirect would need to run.

What type of boiler?

Also when you add multiple relays priority is always zone 1 on the master board, regardless of how many boards are daisy chained.

ChasMan

Ok, so I want to use zone 1 as priority on the master board. The second will be a slave. It will be a pump.

This is a Slant Fin Eutectic boiler, no big deal there.. I can hook in the outdoor reset and all that.

I just need to know if that secondary pump on the slave will drop out on a priority call. I am unsure because the I/O manual and the wiring manual have discrepancies.

ChasMan

Here is the DHW Piped in with pump

The DHW pump will run with a call for heat on Zone 1 of the master.

All zone valves as well as pump a and b will be off during a priority call.

Zones 2-6 will run pump A and zones 7-12 will run pump B.



And those manifolds are not what I have exactly. I just have three BB loops on one and two BB loops on the other. All 135 - 190 degree or so no buffer tank, just a circ. It is working now but the zone valves stay open on priority. The pumps go off and have flowchecks. I want to make the zone valves go off and remove the rattle. I could drop them out with some relays but this looked like a cool solution if it works.

So, not to make it confusing but in order to have the secondary pump switch off I have to turn priority on on the slave control. But that also causes Zone 1 to become a priority zone and ... well, I hope you can see why I am confused. I would assume the system pump contacts on the slave close on any call but that might be wrong too.

ChasMan

Just finished watching the Coffee with Caleffi on Zone Controls and at 1 hour and one minute in they have a diagram that discusses what I want but it is not in the wiring manual for whatever reason. It looks like these should work. I have never done the master / slave setup before. I hope the transformers are quiet.

hot_rod

I will run this by Cody up in Milwaukee, in the morning. He is one of the tech support experts on this control and he may have a wiring drawing in his file.

If something unusual comes up, he generally builds a schematic for it. The wiring guide is a living doc and continues to evolve.

ChasMan

Thanks Hot Rod. I don't think it is unusual. I am just slow picking up on this stuff. With Taco, they have dry contacts so you can work out what they will do but what is not clear and confuses me is the master slave operation and how the slave control will respond when it gets a priority signal. I think they should explain that better. And one other thing, The user guide has a jumper on the primary and secondary pump. The wiring guide just has it on the primary so that added to my confusion. At this point though, I decided to just pick up a Taco 3 zone since I have a six zone I am not using already. And I don't need post purge or exercise or anything fancy.

Dave H_2

So @ChasMan, I think for simplicity's sake and also "next man in" Three controllers are what you are looking for. 2 - ZVC controllers for the zone valves on the manifolds (since each manifold has its own circ) and an SR panel to run the pumps.
Take the XX terminals from each ZVC to a TT terminal on the SR and reserve Zone 3 for the aquastat for the DHW Zone. Turn priority switch to ON at the SR panel and turn the priority zones to OFF on the ZVC panels. This will turn off the manifold pumps for a priority call, but the Zone Valves will stay open if there is a heat call, If you are piped pri/sec, this will cause nothing to happen and all heat will go to the DHW tank, no prob.

The challenge you have is the extra heating manifold circ, if you only had one of those, then yes, you would be able to use a ZVC controller for everything and get what you want.

ChasMan

@Dave H, Thanks but I worked it out in a different way. My entire objective here is to have the zone valves close on a priority call. I am not pumped primary secondary so I have integrated flow checks in all the pumps. At p[resent I have a three relay box so on a priority call the two manifold pumps are switched off and the DHW pump switches on. This is not good. The flow checks rattle and I am going to delete them by having the zone valves switch off. So I am going to do it just like the TACO guide shows on page 34. The pump wiring is straight forward enough. I put one manifold pump on one controller and the other manifold pump on the other. (Grouped together with the correct zone valves) Then I can put the DHW pump on either controller.

Dave H_2

Excellent Chas, that's the beauty of all this, right?

I spent a few minutes looking at the manual online to try to find what you were looking for that I missed that example you showed. I was about to get my hard copy but then got sidetracked........I mean so many ways to get the job done and they are all right as long as the end result is achieved.

Enjoy!

Dave H.

hot_rod

If I'm understanding you, this is what you have

3 BB loops, 3 t-stats Pump A
2 BB loops, 2 t-stats Pump B
DHW priority on ZSR master board, priority on (must be wired to relay 1)

Two Caleffi ZVR relay boxes will work.

The slave board does drop it's zv power and pumps immediately when priority calls on the master board.

On board 1 the master, you need to jumper the end switch on zone 1, that gives the pump for DHW the call to power.

When zone 1, master board calls, all additional zones on that board and the slave board immediately drop off, only the DHW pump powers and two TT enable

The AUX end switch can be tied to the other two TT or not, and pump status can be enabled if for some reason you need to run a boiler pump and DHW pump, primary secondary or hydro sep for example.

Also on the Caleffi boards the transformers are in parallel, so the entire 6 zone can run with one or two transformers. With two you have 80 Va across the entire ZV connections, which is handy with multiple thermal actuators on one output.

Question, if you have zone valves or actuators do you need the check in the pumps?

I tried this on my bench with ZVR and ZSR or any mix of the two relays. Maybe you were missing the jumper on end switch of the priority zone?

ChasMan

@hot rod, Your explanation of my system and how the two boxes work is spot on, it matches the training video too. I see where the photo in the user guide came from. There is a picture of that relay control in the valve guide. Anyways, I understand now how it functions fully. Thank you for all your help. And yes, I will be able to remove the check valves when the zone valves close on priority. I will have to have a check on the DHW pump but that's not a noise issue. Your point about the transformers is a good one. With the TACO setup each zone group will be on a separate transformer but normally with a TACO box, step one is to remove the transformer and throw it away. They are so noisy it is crazy. I have a couple of 80va toroidal running everything.

hot_rod

What type of zone valves are you using that you need that much transformer Va?

ChasMan

I don't need that much power, It is just what I have. I am using the Z1 valves. I got these transformers from Toroid USA, they have a little American flag under the coil wrapper. Wound by hand in Maryland. I have two of them. One is silent and one has a hum if you put it up to your ear.

hot_rod

Good find on the US transformer manufacturer. Most transformers used in the HVAC industry are sourced off shore, and quality control is iffy.