100+ year old home, 4 floors with many issues

helpineed

To all, thank you in advance for the opinions which you share and your patience as well.
I recently moved into an old Brownstone/Rowhouse which is made up of 4 floors and basement. there's 9 radiators in total heated by a Utica PEG 112CIDE gas fired boiler. The boiler will not work if the pressuretrol settings are less than 4 + 3. The boiler keeps running constantly, it does not cycle on and off. The front of the house has the longest pipe run from the boiler.

* First floor has 2 radiators both remain stone cold. The pipes are hot up to the shut off valve. I have verified that the valves are open and there is no obstructions in the pipe.
* 2nd Floor Front of house radiator remains cold (Pipe is hot up to the shut off valve), Foyer radiator heats well. Rear of house takes a bit longer to heat, but works nice when it gets hot.
* 3rd floor Front of house radiator heats lastly, but only the top half, the rear of house radiator heats nicely on this floor.
* 4th floor the front and rear radiators on this floor work well.

I have changed all the vents including the mains so far. I have also disconnected the radiators to verify that they were not clogged by brushing them out and blowing air through the hole for the vent (not the actual vent) as well as looking at the shut off valves to see if they open and close while turning them. I have also replaced the thermostat.

Thanks for your invaluable help. Any and all help is appreciated.

Fred

Post pictures of the boiler, piping around it and a couple radiators that don't heat. I'm assuming this is a one pipe system since you say the radiators have vents on them.
- Let's take the easy problem first: The radiator that only heats across the top. You have a vent on that radiator that is venting too fast. It allows the steam to race across the top of the radiator and close the vent, meaning the air trapped in the bottom half of that radiator can't escape. Put a slower vent on that radiator.
- The radiator that the pipe gets hot up to the valve but the radiators don't heat. Either the vents are stuck closed or the radiators are holding water and the steam is condensing as it tries to enter the radiator. Do you have those radiator valves fully open. On a one pipe system, the valves must always be fully open. If they are open, check the pitch of the radiators. They must have a slight pitch back towards the supply pipe so that condensate can run out.
- How much main venting do you have on the mains? If not enough, it will take an extended amount of time to get the air out of the mains so that steam can travel to the radiators.
- Put enough main vents on the mains and then adjust your radiator venting. Vent mains fast and radiators more slowly. Use good radiator vents! Those from the local big box stores tend to be problematic. Use Hoffman, Vent-Rites or Maid-O-Mist.
- Make sure all of your mains and radiator run outs are pitched correctly, Radiator run-outs back towards the main, main down towards the vertical pipe that drops down into a wet return.
- It sounds like the Pressuretrol (Gray box) on the Boiler either isn't functioning or the pigtail (looped pipe the Pressuretrol is mounted on is clogged and the pressuretrol may not be able to see the system pressure. Take the Pressuretrol off, take the pigtail off and clean it out.
- Make sure the Pressuretrol is set properly. The scale on the front should be set to .5PSI and, under the cover of the Pressuretrol, there is a white wheel, set that to "1". You want to keep the pressure as low as possible. The higher the pressure, the slower the steam will move.
- We need pictures, pictures, pictures.

JohnNY

Are you in Brooklyn? That's a small boiler for anything like a typical BK Rowhouse.

helpineed

I'll post some pictures tomorrow. I have just finished insulating the main to the front of the house (25-35 ft) and have verified that the radiators which do not heat up (pipe is hot up to valves) are pitched correctly and the valves are completely open also replaced the vents.
Thanks for your help thus far.

Fred

If the pipe is hot, up to the valves, something is preventing the steam from getting into the radiator. That would be either air or water or while you think the valve is open, the internal disc, in the valve has come loose and is stuck in the closed position.

helpineed

Update! Since insulating the mains. I have gotten one of the radiators which refused to heat up, to actually get hot. Not as hot as the others but it's an improvement.

JohnNY

Further evidence the boiler is undersized:

helpineed said:

Update! Since insulating the mains. I have gotten one of the radiators which refused to heat up, to actually get hot. Not as hot as the others but it's an improvement.

helpineed

Some pictures of the boiler.

BobC

Utica boilers are fussy about near boiler piping and your boilers piping is not helping anything. Having to run at that pressure indicates something is wrong, is this a gravity return or a pumped return? Piping aside how many mains, how long are they, and and what are the main vents?

Bob

helpineed

I'm 99% sure that it's a gravity return.
there's 2 mains, one each for back and front rooms. Back main is approx. 10 ft horizontal then goes up 4 floors.Serving 4 radiators Everything on this main works like a charm (A previously cold radiator on this main was reborn after I Insulated the mains yesterday). Front mains approx. 40 ft horizontal then the same 4 floors up Serving 5 radiators. First floor Stone cold radiator, Second Warms up SOMETIMES, theres another radiator on this same floor which branches off the same 40 ft horizontal main,so its not from the vertical main this works well. 3rd floor radiator heats last on this line but only the top half. 4th floor radiator is good. I did a small sketch to explain radiator locations, mains and vent sizing.

BobC

Steam follows the path of least resistance, it seems the radiators on the short main are fine and I suspect that main is hogging the steam. The long main is left wanting and one reason for that is it's 4X longer and has the same venting as the sort main.

All else being equal the 40ft main needs 4X the venting as the 10ft main. Your drawing says both mains have a #1 vent (looks like a maid o mist vent. I would put a big mouth on that 40st main and then use the two #1 vents on the 10 ft main. That will give you about 2 cu ft of venting on the long main and 0.6 cu ft on the short main.

Make sure the presuretrol is set as low as it will go, if it won't adjust down to 1.5 or 2# the pigtail might be blocked. Next we could try using smaller vents where you have the C's and D's but try it with main vent changes first and see what that gets us.

Bob

acwagner

I'm not a pro, just a knowledgeable homeowner. For what it's worth, here's my two cents. I assume your vents are Gortons based on the numbers/letters. The front main is 4 times longer than your other main, yet has the same venting capacity. So, it makes sens that it takes longer to heat your front radiators (or they don't heat at all). Your main venting capacity is too small compared to your radiator venting capacity. So, what's happening is your radiators vents are doing all the work of getting the air out of the system. Have you timed how long it takes for different radiators to heat up?

I'd recommend this: take the vent completely off the no heat radiator, run the boiler, and see if it heats up. If it does, then part of the problem is probably a unbalanced venting setup. If that's the case, you need to either reduce the venting capacity of the radiators or (preferably) greatly increase your main venting capacity to several Gorton #2's or equivalent per each main.

Doesn't explain the weird pressure issues you're seeing at the boiler, but I suspect this is probably one of many issues highlighted by others which are compounding the problem.

Fred

Actually, time how long it takes for steam to get to that long main (feel the pipe at the vent location and when it get hot, steam is there), then let the boiler cool down for an hour or so and take the vent off of that main and start the boiler up again and see how long it takes for steam to get there. Have someone at the boiler to turn the power switch off immediately or you will have a sauna in the basement. If it is significantly less time than when the vent was on, you need to try to put enough venting capacity on that main to equal the time it took to get steam through that main with the vent off.

John Mills_5

Off the subject, that water heater flue pipe looks like it's going downhill. Hope it isn't.

Fred

John Mills said:

Off the subject, that water heater flue pipe looks like it's going downhill. Hope it isn't.

Yes Sir! It is. The last picture shows it for sure. That's a recipe for disaster (CO poisioning) Get that fixed! And if the boiler ties into that, get that fixed too!

helpineed

Fred said:

John Mills said:

Off the subject, that water heater flue pipe looks like it's going downhill. Hope it isn't.

Yes Sir! It is. The last picture shows it for sure. That's a recipe for disaster (CO poisioning) Get that fixed! And if the boiler ties into that, get that fixed too!

Thanks for your observation, I never gave much thought to it. I believe that when we replaced the older water heater with this larger one there was a height difference. I have a carbon dioxide detector in the area. But I will work on the flue.

Question
Is it supposed to be level or sloping upwards?

The worst part of a home this old is trying to fix all the wrong/bad fixes by all the previous "professionals"

helpineed

UPDATE!!
This is what i have done so far.
* Replaced and relocated the thermostat. ( it was previously in a cold room)
* Insulated the mains. ( this ressurected one of the previously cold radiators)
* Cleaned the pigtail. ( It was 95% clogged up). I have ordered a new pigtail and low pressure gauge.

I'm seeing (feeling) the results of the minor changes noted above. The thermostat can actually do its job now instead of nonstop calling for heat. The insulated mains now sends heat into the radiators which is where it is needed not the basement. The now clean pigtail alows the pressuretrol to be adjusted to 1psi + 1 on the wheel thus cycling the boiler properly.

I have ordered a new pigtail (although the current one was cleaned up but i'm not satisfied with it), a low pressure gauge and a couple Gorton #2's. by the time these arrive i would already have brought the necessary fittings for an "antler" to be placed on the long main to the front of the house.
I hope to see results of this with respect to the one cold radiator remaining.
Thanks Soooo much for your help guys!!

Fred

Great progress!!! Keep moving forward. Once you get the system fully the way you want, maintenance will be a piece of cake. Keep us posted! Also, watch how your gas bill drops!

helpineed

SUCCESS!!!

Yesterday I doubled the venting on the long main to the front of the house by making an 'antler' also I put in a new pigtail on the boiler and adjusted the pressuretrol to 0.5 psi + 1 on the wheel. I then increased the pitch on the only remaining cold radiator in the house and replaced the vent
The results were almost immediate, the heat felt more intense. If i remember correctly the thermostat was set to 73 degrees and the surface temp on a few of the radiators was on average between 165 - 178 degrees.
The previously cold radiator came to life !! this radiator according to the last resident of the house had not worked in almost 5 years! This was the last radiator to heat up although it is on the first floor. I suspect that it may need more venting.
The main thing is that all my radiators are heating up and i'm in a much better place than when I started out. This is all thanks to you guys here. Your help is appreciated very much.

Fred

Happy to hear this! It just takes a little patience and a willingness to put things back the way they need to be, proven by each success story.

helpineed

Not good news.....
The last of the radiators which I thought was "fixed" is not heating up anymore. I have not made any changes to the system.

acwagner

@helpineed I think this post and your other post about boiler water level are probably interrelated. We may need more information to help you out.

Can you post some pictures of your radiators?

Fred

Based on this result and your other post, I'm wondering if wet steam or high pressure may be the culprit. If it's wet steam, the condensate may be preventing your vents from venting properly and steam can't get into the radiators. Are those radiators pitched correctly?
If your pressure is too high, that pressure may be causing the needle to stick in the closed position so that the next time there is a call for heat, the vent is still closed. Do you have a 0 - 3 PSI gauge on your boiler so you can actually see the pressure? The standard 0 - 30 PSI gauge just isn't accurate enough to see what's going on. They really don't even register pressure until you build about 5PSI, way too high.
You say you doubled the venting on the main. What does "Double" mean? That vent that was on there is way too smal, even doubled. You must have excellent venting on the mains for steam to make it to all of the radiators before the room with the thermostat is satisfied. There is no good "Half way" solution to venting mains.

helpineed

Good Morning Guys, I have ensured that all the radiators are correctly pitched.
I currently have the pressuretrol set at 0.5psi + 1 on the wheel. The pressure gauge is 0 - 30 psi and is not showing any reading. I'm currently waiting on delivery of a 0 - 5 psi gauge.
I previously had 1 Gorton #1 on each of the mains. I did not mess with the short main because...................... wife just called me to the basement..........................
Wife: I've been seeing some water here for a few days now close to the washer
Me: Oh F@*k another problem. 6 mth old washer is leaking.
(looks for the source of the leak)
FOUND IT!!
The horizontal short main passing above the washer is leaking and running down the side of the sink.
Good news is that it SHOULD be an easy fix, one end is in an elbow and the other is in a union. Now to the store to buy 2 wrenches, then get that sucker out for measurements.

Wife: now you have to tell the guys @heating help that your wife found the leak.
Me: Why would I do that?

acwagner

Steam is always a family affair. Now you can tell her every new project requires a new tool....or two.

What size is the pipe? If it's a main it's probably 2"....that might be a struggle to disassemble. Get a 36" wrench if you can find one. I personally haven't tried taking apart pipe that large. I've done 1.25" pipe, and that involved PB blaster, blow torches, and my neighbor and I each with a wrench.

The Pros here can give you some tips on a good path forward.

helpineed

So when i saw the "leak" on the main, it was a large rust bubble dripping water. Last night I moved some stuff around to get a closer look at it, then used a wire brush to clean the area. Lo and behold, the leak is not on the main, (thank God!) its actually on the valve for a radiator directly overhead, Maybe when i increased the pitch, I stressed the connection. it was dripping through the floor into the top of the rust bubble on the main( no doubt this is what caused the rust bubble in the first place) then dripping out the rust bubble, thus giving the appearance of a leaking main.

Although these situations are stressful. I enjoy seeing the results of my handy work. It is expected in a home of 100 + years that things will go bad, It seems to me like the previous occupants never repaired stuff. It was either jury rigged, wrongly installed or just blatantly ignored.

Kahooli

helpineed said:

It is expected in a home of 100 + years that things will go bad, It seems to me like the previous occupants never repaired stuff. It was either jury rigged, wrongly installed or just blatantly ignored.

Yep. I have the same situation. This is my first home but I'm learning just how much people can neglect something.

Fred

That is the best outcome you could have expected. Tightening up or even replacing a valve is a lot better option that replacing a section of Main!