No header ? After 20 years of boiler use.

sldamiano

I have what I believe to be a one pipe steam system fueled by gas. Its over 20 years old. I noticed that the main vent in the basement above my boiler, which I learned is ther return? Spits out water once the system is fired up and running. I contacted a service man and sent pictures. He told me it’s because my boiler was installed incorrectly, without a header, and it wouldn’t be an easy or cheap job because it would be difficult or impossible to get fittings out of a boiler that’s been in service for many years.

How has this system been running for so long this way ? And what the heck are my options ?
Attached is a picture side view of the boiler and the above vent that spits water.

MilanD

It is possible your operating pressure has creeped up and now the pressure is blowing through the condensate out the vent. At what pressure is your pressuretrol set?

2 things to check:

1. Is the syphon looking pipe clear (aka pigtail)? It's the brass 1/8" pipe coming out of the side of the boiler to which the pressuretrol and pressure gauge are connected,

2. Once this is clear, confirm what is your op pressure? Your 30 psi gauge may show 4-5 psi, but for anything lower, you will need 3 psi gauge installed.

It is possible for systems with less than ideal piping to operate. They may not be ideal but they will work. Once pressure creeps up (plugged pigtail, broken or miscalibrated pressuretrol), you get excess pressure messing with things.

On the other hand, higher pressure although wasting fuel, helps improperly piped (and oversized) boilers, as it keeps steam bubbles smaller and less of water carryover into the main line. In this way, steam is slower and heats the system better when the system is improperly piped (steam bubbles in the boiler escaping into pipes are smaller when the water boils in the boiler, and pressure keeps water in the boiler due to slower steam velocity). Thus, your system may have operated in a "goldilocks" area which kept the steam "dry" but was under pressure yet not big enough to blow through the vent, which is now happening.

So, this pressure helps the system operate properly, but if it creeps up, it can blow through the vents, main and radiator ones alike.

sldamiano

I did have the pigtail cleaned before the start of last season and he mentioned that I have an oversized boiler. Have not this year had it cleaned this year. I do notice the system starts and cuts off quickly before getting the house to temp. I guess the pressure is raising high too fast. I believe it cuts off around 5psi and the cut in is set to 1.5

I read on some sites to change my main vent return to a Groton. Right now I’m using a vent right 35. No clue is that has any effect on it.

I’m not sure what my next move should be

MilanD

Try lowering the op pressure down to 4, then 3 and see what the differential is inside - white wheel set to 1, 2, 3 etc. This is usually an add pressure to pressure set with the screw. So look at the gauge, set to 3, and inside wheel to 1. Then see what happens. If pressure at 4, or 3 still spits water out of vent, replace it. Yes, better vents will vent better. Gorton #2 or look for Big Mouth here on the site store.

Ideally, op pressure needs not exceed 1.5 psi cut out. On oversized boilers, this can't be avoided and pressure is at 3 or 4. Not ideal as it wastes fuel, and can only be helped with good main venting. Big mouth or 2 on a branch. You have an afterthought vent on an 1/8 tapping. Look for somewhere on the main after the last riser to the rad that has 3/4 opening and add a vent there, on as tall as of nipple you can get and as close to the ceiling.

sldamiano

I’m not sure where I should be adjusting ? Sorry. I’m sure I have my parts lingo wrong.

MilanD

Set screw on front of the pressuretrol, remove and expose inside. Set wheel to 1. Screw on top of gauge set to .5 (0.5 - lowest). This will likely shortcycle the boiler, if indeed oversized. See how heat works. If vent spits, replace it. I'm assuming you will need it replaced anyway.

Remember, you need fast venting on the main. Faster the better.

sldamiano

Ok, thank you. Will do today and see how it goes.

Dave0176

Weil-McLain EG-55??

sldamiano

well mclain peg-45-spdn-s

Can I remove the vent rite 35 and replace with a Gorton 2 ?

Dave0176

sldamiano said:

well mclain peg-45-spdn-s



Can I remove the vent rite 35 and replace with a Gorton 2 ?

Yes the No2 vents waaaay faster

The Weil-McLain EG-45 is 150,000 btu and 392 sq ft steam boiler.

Steamhead

The Gorton #2 won't work too well on a 1/8" pipe like that. Fortunately there is a union just below where that little pipe is tapped in, so one can take it apart and install a proper tee with a 1/2" riser to hold the Gorton.

sldamiano

So I’m obviously not a good listener. The guy at the heating store gave me a Gorton #1 and told me this was the one I needed to use to replace my vent rite 35. Will this be ok ?

Fred

sldamiano said:

So I’m obviously not a good listener. The guy at the heating store gave me a Gorton #1 and told me this was the one I needed to use to replace my vent rite 35. Will this be ok ?

The Gorton #1 is about three times faster venting @.33 Cubic feet per minute at 1 ounce of pressure than the Vent-Rite #35, which only vents at .11CPM.
The Gorton #2 vents at 1.1CPM
However, the Gorton #1 has a 3/4" stem on it where the Gorton #2 is 1/2".
A 1/8" tapping will vent 1.2CFM per minute so you can buy a 1/8" nipple to put in that hole, mount a 1/8" X 1/2" coupling on top of it and screw your Gorton #2 vent into it and be fine.

Steamhead

That won't work, Fred. That 1/8" pipe won't leave any room for condensate to drain away from the vent. It needs to be larger. You might get away with 3/8", but no less.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Seems to me that the header/steam main drip and the dry return are tied together at or above the water line. Steam from the drip will close that vent and cause problems.

A relatively simple and not too expensive fix is to lower that tee below the water line. I would strongly recommend taking a few measurements to confirm this and make that change. Looks that way in the pictures

sldamiano

> @Dave0176 said:
> well mclain peg-45-spdn-s
>
>
>
> Can I remove the vent rite 35 and replace with a Gorton 2 ?
>
> Yes the No2 vents waaaay faster
>
> The Weil-McLain EG-45 is 150,000 btu and 392 sq ft steam boiler.


I don’t know my edr. Just learning and continuing to educate myself. But I imagine it’s very oversized. My house only has 6 radiators.

sldamiano

> @MilanD said:
> Set screw on front of the pressuretrol, remove and expose inside. Set wheel to 1. Screw on top of gauge set to .5 (0.5 - lowest). This will likely shortcycle the boiler, if indeed oversized. See how heat works. If vent spits, replace it. I'm assuming you will need it replaced anyway.
>
> Remember, you need fast venting on the main. Faster the better.
>
>

Is there a different setting I should be using now that I’ve changed the main vent yet it’s still short cycles ? Or is this just a case of the boiler being oversized and this is going to happen ?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Check the height of the tee as I posted above. That could be the reason the vent spits.

I am surprised no one else noticed this

sldamiano

> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
> Check the height of the tee as I posted above. That could be the reason the vent spits.
>
> I am surprised no one else noticed this

The vent is no longer spitting. I cleaned pigtail and switched out vent. Boiler short cycles often though.

sldamiano

I’m lost as to what setting I should be using on my pressurtrol. I’ve been trying to play around with the setting to find a somewhat happy place. Right now it’s set to .05 and 1 on the dial. All the rads heat up, but the boiler cycles on and off literally 10 times in minutes. Should I be adjusting the pressurtrol settings to help. I just had a big mouth installed on my main.

Fred

Is this a new event or has it always done that? Are you sure it is shutting down on pressure and not low water?How long has the boiler run before it starts that short cycling? Are you trying to test the system by setting the thermostat way up so that the boiler runs a long time? The settings you have on the Pressuretrol are correct. Do you only have one Main? You mention you have a new Big Mouth installed. Is there only one main? Each main needs to be vented.
I see from your original post that the boiler is piped completely wrong and I also see the return is piped into what should be an equalizer, well above the boiler water line. I suspect there are a number of contributing factors to this problem. The boiler looks pretty large also. How much over-sized is it?

sldamiano

I had the thermostat call for heat to time when it would cut off. It ran for about 5 minutes and then shut off. I have one main with a gorton 1 origanlly and just had a big mouth added to that main. I’m pretty sure the boiler is oversized, but should I be changing the settings ? Hearing the boiler click on and off multiple times in minutes before the thermostat is satisfied makes me cringe

Fred

See the other questions I added to my post above. Increasing the Pressuretrol setting won't fix anything.

EBEBRATT-Ed

If you have enough venting and you are building pressure your boiler is OVERSIZED. I's atmospheric gas so theirs not much you can do to down fire it. The boiler capacity and the installed radiation capacity must reasonably match. If the boiler is to large you will build presure

Try adjusting the pressure control (the screw on top) to have the burner shut down when the pressure rises to 2 psi. Adjust the wheel inside to about a 1.5 differential or as much as you can to get the burner to come on just above 0.

You may have to install a low pressure gage to help you adjust the pressure control.

A properly operating steam system in a house should not build steam pressure.

Other than that you may change the thermostat to a newer model with a "cycles/hr setting"

sldamiano

It has never short cycled this much. I’m sure it’s the pressure and not lwco. I have yet to learn to calculate my edr, 6 rads, I know that doesn’t help! but was told by a tech in the previous year that it’s 392sqft boiler and was oversized.
@EBEBRATT-Ed are you suggesting to change the set screw on top, cut in, to 2 ? And 1.5 on dial ?

Fred

How high is the water level in the sight glass? Try keeping it at about half full.
I think @EBEBRATT-Ed is suggesting the total pressure be at about 2 PSI. Leave the Cut-in at .5 and adjust the inside wheel to 1.5. That will cut-out at 2 PSI. My personal opinion is that won't fix anything. It may take an additional minute before you hit the Cut-out but, after that initial cut off, the time lapse between cut-in and cut- out won't change much, if at all.

sldamiano

The sight glass is less than half full. Why not raise the diff setting more and leave the cut in at .5 ? I’m not sure the pressurtrol works correctly anyways as it doesn’t match the reading on the 30psi gauge. Guess I should have it all looked it.

Fred

@sldamiano said: The sight glass is less than half full. Why not raise the diff setting more and leave the cut in at .5 ?
That's what I said.
You really need to get a 0 - 3 or 0 -5 PSI gauge on the boiler. The 30 PSI gauge is worthless at lower pressures. The Pressuretrol may need to be re-calibrated but you really need an accurate pressure reading before you take that step. Re-calibrating the Pressuretrol isn't going to fix the short cycling. You need to make an attempt of calculating the EDR of the radiators so we can see how much over-sized the boiler actually is. Once that is done, a two stage gas valve may be the only real fix.

sldamiano

@Fred took a stab at the edr. Came up with 34,320 or 143sq ft. Sounds grossly oversized to me it’s a 392sq ft steam boiler

MilanD

Hello @sldamiano , sorry I missed this thread for the past month...

Regarding a few questions of yours: if you've reset the pressure down on the pressuretrol, and the boiler now cycles on and off more than before, that means it's doing what you asked it to do: cut off on the lower op pressure. Now that you know your boiler is 2.5 times oversized, to avoid cycling on pressure you may not be able to operate on such a low pressure.

Now, other people here have lively discussions over efficiency of on and off boiler cycling on pressure vs. fuel use to build (unnecessary?) pressure vs wear and tear on equipment (gas valves, boiler casting) with greater cycle and temp swing rates....

So, question for you: when does the pressure start building? Are the rads getting warm at all before cycling starts, not at all, or some do some don't?

Pressure can build either by steam pushing against the air still inside pipes that can't evacuate fast enough through the existing main and rad vents as the steam is rushing out of the boiler, or as the air is out and more steam is made by the boiler vs. what condensates as it's giving out heat to the rad/room. You want to, therefore, max out your main venting, per earlier comments here. Then, since your boiler is so oversized, you have to decide if you want to add one more vent on each riser/rad to help speed up venting the risers. Then, decide if you want to let it cycle or build pressure or a combo between the 2.

On a gas-fired atmospheric boiler, I personally don't think cycling is an issue on the equipment. It's not ideal, but gas valve can cycle many cycles before breaking down. It's designed to cycle. Also, imho, I feel it's better on the boiler casting too, not to overheat it. Finally, your vents will last longer under lower pressure in the pipes, and your valves and fittings are less likely to leak.

So, play with settings and leave them where your house heats comfortably. There are people who posted here with oversized boilers who are having very satisfactory results heating their homes. One thing you definitely don't want to do is lower temps overnight for more than 1-2 degrees, if even that. Oversized boiler will cycle a lot a lot to get back out of a set-back temp.

Happy holidays!

MilanD

One last comment: you may be able to install a 2-stage gas valve on the boiler. For this you will need a good tech who knows what they are doing. It's been done by several techs on this forum. This will downsize your boiler and your problems would be solved.

Not to oversimplify, eg boiler you have is essentially a smaller version of LGB, which is what I have. LGB comes standard with a 2-stage gas valve. People will argue about if stack temps will be adequate for a proper draft on a downfired boiler, and my take is that low staging an oversized boiler making it "right" size would create stack temps equal to what they would be if a right sized boiler was installed in the first place. So... Fwiw.

sldamiano

@MilanD thanks for explaining. Makes perfect sense.
My rads don’t have trouble heating, they get hot fast, within minutes of the boiler kicking on it cycles and they are warm. Beside one farthest from the boiler, been having trouble getting that one to heat evenly.
But I have been playing around with it and did learn to NOT set back so drastically. I was doing so while away at work and coming home to boiler taking hours to satisfy thermostat.
I’m going to look into adding more main venting. What does it mean exactly to add venting to each riser/rad ? Not sure I understand the placement. But these are all things I will do now to help this heating season, as I think about a replacement for next season considering it’s age ? Thanks for all the knowledge.

MilanD

@sldamiano

If your rads are heating well, all but one, I wouldn't worry about venting the risers. You may be able to nudge the steam towards the slow rad by slowing down a few other rads before it, or, since your boiler is oversized, by simply speeding up venting on the slow rad. You have plenty of steam generating in the oversized boiler.

To explain venting risers: you can either tap the existing rad at the first section and install one more rad vent, or you can pipe a tee on the riser before the valve, and add a vent there. It'd look something like the attached picture. I did this for a long riser to a usually cold room. This room and this rad now heat first. The rad is farthest from the boiler, and coincidentally, also the largest on the system.

Fred

@sldamiano , yes, the boiler is way, way over-sized or your EDR calculation is way off. How did you calculate the EDR? I see you have BTU's then converted to EDR. EDR is calculated by type of radiator, height, number of sections, number of tubes or columns and number of sections, then looking that radiator up in Dan's book "Every Darn Radiator" available at the store on this site or you can use this sheet for a quick and dirty, decent estimate:

srmaietta

Sldamiano,
My old system is piped "wrong" like yours. (no header, mix of 1 and 2 pipe, among other things) It usually runs quiet, and under 1 psi, but last year it began to short cycle, pressure would build and force the low water cutoff into action. Also water was blowing into the pipes and causing hammer.
This happened after I flushed and cleaned the boiler with chemicals. To solve this, I had to skim the boiler three times over two days, (around 10 gallons Id say) and then it settled down into the tame, quiet beast I was used to. My thought is that the water was foaming the dirt and chemicals up and so the pressure couldn't get up into the pipes, but instead would force the water into the return and then the LWCO would trip. Anyway, it was solved by a good 'ol skimming.

So if you added a lot of water recently or "cleaned" your boiler recently, a good skim or two can't hurt.

good luck,
~Steve

sldamiano

@Fred that’s the exact chart I found online and used. Pretty sure it’s correct, I did it several times.

Fred

@sldamiano , That means your boiler is 2 and a half times larger than it should be. Shy of a replacement, I don't know of any way to fix that.

sldamiano

@fred sounds like it’s time. Note to self, pay closer attention to heating system when buying a new home.

sldamiano

@fred when I asked my service man about this, he simply raised the cut in to 2, and never liked to see the differential settings

Fred

@sldamiano , did he think he actually fixed anything? The Cut-in, set at 2 just means the boiler will fire at 2PSI or anything below that and the differential, which has to be set at "1" or more just lets the pressure build to at least 3 PSI which actually slows the steam flow down, at that pressure. Those settings may give you a few extra minutes before the first time the burner shuts down on pressure but after that first time, it will short cycle just as often as if the Cut-in were set at .5 and the differential set at 1, but the way he set it steam is slower getting to the radiators and harder on all the vents/valves.

sldamiano

Is skimming the boiler something I’m supposed to do ? I haven’t done in once, ever.