Right or repipe it

Charlie from wmass

I have attached a couple photos of a boiler I clean today.

Charlie from wmass

second photo

EBEBRATT-Ed

looks like the equalizer is at the wrong end of the header. Since all the condensate travels back through the header I would think it would hammer and/or the condensate is killing the steam

Danny Scully

I'm assuming you're making a funny @Charlie from wmass, because I know you know the answer

Charlie from wmass

no hammer at any part of the cycle. @Danny Scully if you saw this would you repipe it?

Danny Scully

@Charlie from wmass, I would absolutely recommend it. My selling point being efficiency. Even if the system isn't making any noise, you can be sure the piping isn't providing dry steam. Wet steam means loss of efficiency. Again, I would recommend it.

Charlie from wmass

you would be wrong.

Steamhead

I'd move the steam input connection to the rear of the header. That would be the simplest way to correct it.

Charlie from wmass

not wrong location according to the weil mclain counterflow piping method.

Steamhead

Are the steam mains parallel or counter flow?

Charlie from wmass

counterflow

Danny Scully

In other words @Charlie from wmass, this was a trick question? Well that was fun...I piped my own boiler that way.

Paul48

Wow.....No Hartford Loop required, or drips. You would think that would be a recipe for a symphony.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Another case of piping that may be less than "text book" but works fine

Charlie from wmass

It was a leap of faith in Weil Mclain engineering when I piped my first boiler this way about 7 years ago. This one I repiped three years ago It has been great and have a life long custom now.

j a_2

It's never an easy call as what you should do or not do...But informing the owner of your findings is probloley the best thing you can do...So much can happen,and then you end up owning the whole package...I am sure your trying to do the right thing,as well as you appear to really like steam piping, but my advice would be to inform them and move on....Massachusetts, plumbers are extremely busy so I can't imagine you needing work..They all call back....

ChrisJ

j a said:

It's never an easy call as what you should do or not do...But informing the owner of your findings is probloley the best thing you can do...So much can happen,and then you end up owning the whole package...I am sure your trying to do the right thing,as well as you appear to really like steam piping, but my advice would be to inform them and move on....Massachusetts, plumbers are extremely busy so I can't imagine you needing work..They all call back....

I'm pretty sure he piped it j a.

He posted it here after I said the piping was wrong, and he corrected me so I said he should post it here.

I didn't believe it would work either, but if Charles says it works, it works.

Really, this thread should be viewed as a learning experience for everyone. That piping, works, and I'm told works well.

If the header is big enough to allow the water to drain backwards against the steam, it would obviously work, just like any single pipe radiator run out. It just needs to be big enough.

j a_2

Piped it or repiped it? is this an old thread, I thought he was looking for opinions, but sometimes old guys like me don't read thru as we should

ChrisJ

j a said:

Piped it or repiped it? is this an old thread, I thought he was looking for opinions, but sometimes old guys like me don't read thru as we should

I think he's the original installer.

I understand the confusion.

j a_2

Oh thanks for the update...I will read better next time

Danny Scully

It was a trick question lol

Fred

Yes it was! When I first looked at it, I started to say the same things that were said by others. Then I decided this had to be a trick question, of some kind so I decided to wait and see what others had to say. LOL Just goes to show there's more than one way to do things, conventional or not, if they work properly, that's the goal state.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

Yes it was! When I first looked at it, I started to say the same things that were said by others. Then I decided this had to be a trick question, of some kind so I decided to wait and see what others had to say. LOL Just goes to show there's more than one way to do things, conventional or not, if they work properly, that's the goal state.

You mean like, how bullhead tees in a main work properly 99% of the time?

JUGHNE

Should this work?
2 4" risers to 4" header....3" steam mains 45 off each end.
"Equalizer" coming out of side of 4" header down to top of accumulator tank. (no dripping there with the side connection)
Return HL coming into other end of tank.
2 boiler returns from bottom of tank into boiler.

Never a knock of water hammer here....runs at 8 ozs pressure. 1 pipe system.

EBEBRATT-Ed

a lot of times things that are piped "wrong" work. There's a million ways to screw pipe together.

Just like electrical, just cause an appliance has a 15 amp cord doesn't mean you can plug it into any 15 amp outlet.

trouble is, take a system that piped wrong and change the boiler or just change something, replace some pipe, some component and all of a sudden nothing works right!!!!

Charlie from wmass

@EBEBRATT-Ed the photo I shared was the solution to a boiler piped wrong. ANY boiler is now a cut and paste into this system as long as it is sized right and they leave the header alone. This is the simplest method for counterflow systems. drips and Hartford loops on counterflow are wasted pipe, fittings, and time that leave places that simply collect sludge. KISS so physics can do it's job.

ChrisJ

The problem is, some seem to have having trouble imagining a counter flow header working.

But, why wouldn't it?

It's no different than a counter flow run out, or counter flow main. It needs to be sized appropriately. That's all.

HVACNUT

> @Charlie from wmass said:
> @EBEBRATT-Ed the photo I shared was the solution to a boiler piped wrong. ANY boiler is now a cut and paste into this system as long as it is sized right and they leave the header alone. This is the simplest method for counterflow systems. drips and Hartford loops on counterflow are wasted pipe, fittings, and time that leave places that simply collect sludge. KISS so physics can do it's job.

I don't care if it works, it looks ugly.
I say repipe it, or at least hang some chili pepper lights from it.
After seeing all the beautiful steam installs here, I don't know...

Charlie from wmass

@HVACNUT if I zoomed out and you saw the rest of the working conditions it makes a little bit more sense it goes with the decor much better than chili lights do. Also with the location of that piping it actually is not a headbanger I kept it so that it would not be an issue for working on the boiler and all clean out are available for Servicing. Also the tape put on the smoke pipe was not by me that was by the original installer.

HVACNUT

@Charlie from wmass, I'm just busting chops. I've got time to kill until 1:00 when the G-men tank again.
I didn't even know what a drop header was until I saw pics and posts (hey, football slang) from you guys.
Agree with the foil tape. If a customer wants it, I tell them I don't carry it. 3 screws. I do carry it, but for emergencies only.

Steamhead

I'm simply not a fan of counterflow headers. I think the usual parallel-flow header produces drier steam. If we have an existing header that is pitched the wrong way but is otherwise fine, we do our best to hook it up parallel-flow, as we did here:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/148298/atmospheric-out-power-burner-in

But as others have said, if it works, that's what counts.

Charlie from wmass

@Steamhead if given a choice I prefer to install the parallel flow header even on the counter flow systems because it doesn't make me scratch my head and say that shouldn't work. When I am painted into a corner where the counter flow header needs to be used as I was in this situation I have found no appreciable operational differences. As always there are caveats. I use the largest size of Riser available for the boiler. In this case it was two and a half inch from a single riser. Had the rear section been tapped I would have taken a ricer out of there also. I try to bring the risers up as high as practical. I also make sure the header is two pipe sizes larger than the standard Header recommended for that boiler and one pipe size larger than the counterflow Header recommended. I also make sure that the downturn elbow is the full size of the header and The Equalizer is at least one pipe size larger than recommended in the installation manual for the boiler. I also prefer to make sure that everything is insulated which was not what happened in this case. This boiler is located in old stone foundation basement in Upstate New York and the boiler is at least a section and a half too large for the home. The wasted heat from the uninsulated pipe near the boiler does manage to keep the pipes from freezing even in the coldest Upstate Winters. I didn't post this to say here's a really messed up installation that works by some sort of miracle I posted it as a functional alternative piping method for specific situations. Had I arrived and installed a new boiler from scratch it would not look this way. The only place that was replaced by me was the front two tees and the equalizer to the front of the boiler. I will see if I have any before pictures.

j a_2

HVACNUT said:

@Charlie from wmass, I'm just busting chops. I've got time to kill until 1:00 when the G-men tank again.

I didn't even know what a drop header was until I saw pics and posts (hey, football slang) from you guys.

Agree with the foil tape. If a customer wants it, I tell them I don't carry it. 3 screws. I do carry it, but for emergencies only.</

I feel your pain on the g men tanking...I think when the pats start tanking after this era I won't be able to watch them....anymore...

I would rather an ugly truck that started every morning than a beautiful truck that didn't...