Balancing radiator steam heat system - 16 unit apartment building

nicholas bonham-carter

If the system is perfectly balanced with capacious venting, running at a few ounces, controlled by a proper temperature regulation system, then probably no one will need to turn off any radiators, as the heat will be perfectly comfortable. It will no longer enable the windows to be wide open in winter, but will certainly be an improvement.
A few Gorton 1's and 2's will probably not be enough for the mains, but you may be able to use Gorton D's on the radiators at the top of each riser.
Remember that by making your system more comfortable and efficient, you will be saving the planet! In the absence of participation by our government in worldwide environmental improvements, we must do all we can as concerned and intelligent citizens to reduce our carbon footprint.--NBC

bcoyle

I'm back at this! Just reading over all the comments now that the temps are dropping and the boiler heating is becoming more of interest.

Progress was made - one boiler tech came last weekend and dropped the pressuretrol cut-in and differential - now the boiler cuts off at 3psi, and on at 1psi. I don't think it'll go lower unless we get a vaporstat. They also set the burner as low as it would go without destabilizing - and suggested putting material in the fire chamber to dampen the heat further to settle the surging on the sight glass.

But an issue persists that when running manually (without the heat-timer), the boiler uses up all the water and the water feeder cuts on - I assume as days go by the heat gets less and less, and I eventually would find the boiler flooded.

There's also a long pipe run I found in the basement that is capped off after 25ft or so - could this be a place where condensate would build up? Or would the air pressure be enough to hold it back?

I've started a radiator review and gotten 50% of the units in my building to respond about how they use their radiators. A lot of them keep their supply valves shut for the whole winter, relying only on the risers for heat. Others turn the valve on and off depending on how they feel. I'm wondering what amount of condensate a radiator could hold that might be enough to cause the water level to drop in the boiler? Or enough that when they open the radiator back up it floods the boiler?

Next step will be pricing for entire building to get radiator vents resized - and possibly thermostatic valves for folks who really want more control over their heat.

But I'm curious what people think of the water surging in the boiler.

nicholas bonham-carter

There may be some additive in the boiler water which is causing the surging. Draining, and refilling with fresh water may be the next step. Clean the gauge glass and keep an eye on the color of the water, to see if skimming would help
The pressure needs to be lower, and a vaporstat needs to be installed, with an accurate 0-3 psi gauge, as you only need a few ounces to get steam everywhere, if the main venting is good.
Replace the heatimer with a sensor in the coldest apartment, and open all the rad valves.—NBC

bcoyle

@nicholas bonham-carter draining & refilling the water was done, still surged, surgeX was added to the water, still surged - skimming would be something to think about - although I don't think our boiler has a port to allow for this. The only chemical port is in the rear at the bottom. I wanted to look into a company to do water treatment after the winter is over.

Does lining the fire chamber seem excessive to help in limiting the burner's strength? That seemed to be what the tech thought would solve our surging. High fire temp causing the water to surge? But even at the lowest low fire, the water is surging. Maybe that is true if the vast majority of the radiator system is closed off.

Any suggestions on a better sensor brand/model than the heat-timer? I called heat-timer and our heat-timer is 13 years old, not under warranty, and doesn't seem to calibrate, so we might be looking to replace it soon.

side note: I've got some temp sensors coming in the mail, plan to place them at the very ends of the 2 main runs, as well as at the boiler to monitor temp & speed.

Thanks

Fred

Additives put into the boiler water more often than not will cause more surging. It sounds like you need to drain that boiler a flush it to get that SurgeX out of it and anything else that might have been put in there and skim the boiler. Nothing replaces a good skimming except another skimming, if necessary. If you don't have a skim port, find a place where one can be added. Anyone who suggests lining a fire chamber to eliminate surging really doesn't know what he is doing and is just grabbing at straws.

nicholas bonham-carter

Lets recap here what we know about your system:

1. Your boiler may be twice the required size, as a result of having been selected by an unknowledgeable plumber.
2. Your boiler has been poorly installed by same, ignoring the manufacturer's requirements, and is now blowing a lot of its water up into the supplies.
3.Various snake oil additives have been put into the system causing more problems.
4. The pressure limiting device, (pressuretrol) appears to have been incorrectly set to a higher pressure than many components of a steam heating system can tolerate . This will make it difficult for the returning water to get back into the boiler. A needed low pressure gauge, showing true ounces of pressure is not installed.
5. The control system for the heating system is cumbersome at best, and has little input from the interior temperature. It is a type of snake oil, sold door to door in early days before this website began to educate owners and installers in the "Lost Art of Steam Heating"
6. The occupants\owners of the building seem disinterested in improving the situation, apart from you.
7. This may be a point where you could say, "Enough with these losers, I will sell, and move to a building whose occupants are making the building GREAT!"--NBC

quack24

I wonder what method they used to size the boiler the finger one or the biggest boiler that fit through the doorway one

bcoyle

@nicholas bonham-carter lol good suggestion to move! haha. It's funny that in NYC you don't get a chance to inspect this type of stuff until you've bought into the building. And I wouldn't have known what to look for until recently.

In the meantime I'm putting thermostatic valves on my radiators to control the heat a bit for my unit. But I'll continue to study our pipes so I can propose a few options to the board so they at least have better knowledge of the situation than they did in the past. You're totally right that there's a lot wrong with the setup and lots of the fixes are just bandaids trying to fix it. I think we'll eventually need to do a cost comparison of getting a new boiler vs all the costs of boiler tech calls and small fixes.

Appreciate all your input and advice through all my posts. Cheers