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lochinvar noble

Will82
Will82 Member Posts: 41
Just looking for feedback has anyone installed are used this boiler yet? Looks like it's got 10 to 1 turn down to 11,000 BTUs which is the lowest I have seen in Combi.

Comments

  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,674
    I haven't used one yet but I've seen one up close and personal and I was impressed. Easily serviced, well designed, well thought out.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • DC123
    DC123 Member Posts: 69
    Out of curiosity, do you see anything that differentiates the Noble from the NTI Vmax, other than the lack of the optional 16 gallon indirect? 110K BTU on the Noble without any storage seems underpowered for domestic water.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,037
    I think it is aimed at those price point imported "tankless" style boilers on the market. Less bells and whistles but well designed for installation and service.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    I'm trying to decide between a Navien Combi NCB-180E or a lochinvar noble NKC110N. The $ very similar just not sure which want to go with.
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
    Will82 said:

    I'm trying to decide between a Navien Combi NCB-180E or a lochinvar noble NKC110N. The $ very similar just not sure which want to go with.

    They are not exactly apples to apples in performance. The NCB-180E is closer to the NKC150N than the 110N. Look at the GPM flow for DHW:

    NCB-180E -> 3.4 gpm @ 77 degree rise 14k btu low fire
    NKC110N -> 2.6 gpm @ 77 degree rise 11k btu low fire

    NKC150N -> 3.6 gmp @ 77 degree rise 15k btu low fire

    As I mentioned in your previous topic when you were comparing the Navien 150 to the 180, if you can live with the lower gpm for DHW go with the smaller modcon otherwise bump up to the next model. Now you've replaced the Navien 150 with the Lochinvar that delivers the same DHW flow and gives you a low fire of 11k instead of 12k. It still boils down to what you're comfortable with for domestic hot water capacity. I wouldn't factor that 2k or 3k of difference on low fire modulation into the decision personally.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,037
    What is the heat load? If it is close to the 110 output, then the Navian is way oversized.

    That is the challenge with combo units, usually one or the other side is a compromise.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    kcoppCMadatMeSuperTech
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
    hot rod said:

    What is the heat load? If it is close to the 110 output, then the Navian is way oversized.

    That is the challenge with combo units, usually one or the other side is a compromise.

    His heat loss is about 45k. This is his fourth or fifth topic on the same issue, which boiler to go with. The Navien model numbers don't represent BTU/H, the NCB-180E has space heating of 14k - 80k and DHW input of 14k - 150k and looking at the Noble literature it's BTU/H is 11k - 110k which is why on the combi side the DHW is limited to 2.6 gpm and the same as the previous model he was looking at, the Navien NCB 150E with space heating BTU/H 12k - 60k and DHW input 12k - 120k. Looks like he's replaced the Navien NCB-150E & Navien NCB-180E choice with Navien NCB-180E & Lochinvar NKC110N, similar to the Navien150E specs.

    http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/161272/the-right-boiler-for-the-house
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    I know I have posted on this issue several times just trying to make the best decision. My heat lost is 45-50 BTU. I have a mono flow system 1 inch copper pipe one single zone with 75 feet of high output baseboard. I know I am going to purchase one of these 3 models. I guess I'm just trying to find out which boiler is better Navien or Lochinvar?
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    Also I was looking at the turndown on the Lochinvar 10:1 so I guess it would be 11,000,21,000,31,000,41,000,51,000,61,000,
    71,000,81,000,91,000 101,000BTU vs the Navien which only has a 6:1 turndown.
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
    Will82 said:

    I know I have posted on this issue several times just trying to make the best decision. My heat lost is 45-50 BTU. I have a mono flow system 1 inch copper pipe one single zone with 75 feet of high output baseboard. I know I am going to purchase one of these 3 models. I guess I'm just trying to find out which boiler is better Navien or Lochinvar?

    I understand but you still seem hung up on the whole "best" scenario as you were in your previous topics. The ferrari v. corvette analogy you used before. As many users responded then, there is no "best" in an objective sense. You're asking a question that has only subjective answers. Everybody's best is different. Of the two you are looking at now if what you said is true and the prices are comparable, you would be getting more boiler for your buck with the Navien. The turndown ratio is irrelevant as far as cost savings because there is such little difference between the two but the DHW difference is significant. <- again in a choice between combis this should be your deciding factor. Based on the info you provided in the other topics I responded that the Navien NCB-150E would be sufficient provided you didn't shower & use dishwasher at the same time during coldest months. If you were fine with that then the Lochinvar NKC110N will also be fine as it has the same DHW rating.

    If you go with a Navien there is no guarantee you won't have problems. If you go with Lochinvar there is no guarantee you won't have problems. What's best in your case is to install the combi boiler that best meets your space heating and hot water needs AND the mfg that your installer is most familiar with and can get parts easiest/quickest for. Ask them which they are more experienced in. That would then be your "best" choice. ;-)
    kcoppSuperTech
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,674
    edited March 2017
    Lochinvar KHN055 with an indirect would be my choice.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    BrewbeerCanuckerSuperTech
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
    If we ever become empty nesters the Vitodens 222-F would be my Ferrari of choice. :smiley:
    Will82
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    I plan on going with the Lochinvar. Do I need to install manifold or a low loss header? House has only one zone mono flow system.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,037
    Pages 32-

    http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/100275091_2000533998_Noble Combi Boiler_I-S_Rev C_12-9-16.pdf

    They do show P/S or a low loss header. Unless you can assure the min. flow rates shown in table 6A.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • bob eck
    bob eck Member Posts: 928
    I met with our local Lochinvar Rep today on this boiler and it looks like a very good combi boiler. Not the lowest cost combi boiler on the market but the cost is very competitive and I feel the SS fire tube heat exchanger is a great design as heat exchangers go for this type of boilers. Not a lot of extra in the control system but it has outdoor reset (wired) and (wireless as a option) domestic hot water priority plus the control runs primary pump and one system pump.
    My father in-law needs to replace his 41 year old oil boiler and with up to $1800 utility rebate looks like I will be putting this Lochinvar combi boiler in his house. He has a one zone standing radiator system that will work great piped P/S and with the large water content the boiler will condense most of the heating season. Should be able to run supply water no more than 160 degree on coldest winter day with outside temps around 10 degrees.
    I installed a T/T PE110 in my house back in 2009 with large cast iron radiators and that boiler has heated my house great. Piping it in P/S all radiators heat up evenly not like when the boiler was a cast iron oil boiler with domestic coil. The old cast iron oil boiler would have been better if that boiler was piped P/S but it just had the pump on the return pipe into the boiler and the system never heated the cast iron radiators evenly.
    There is a lot to be said for piping boilers P/S
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,085
    edited March 2017
    hot rod said:

    What is the heat load? If it is close to the 110 output, then the Navian is way oversized.

    That is the challenge with combo units, usually one or the other side is a compromise.

    Navien isn't over sized on the heat load... Boiler Pump can only move a little over 5gpm.. If the heat loss is only 45K then could actually pipe direct providing not overcoming the residual head loss of the on board pump...
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,085
    Noble is just a Mod/Con with a flat plate HX. Nothing special. I do like that it uses Caleffi's Piston vs a 3 Way Vlv and it's clean meaning easy to service, less parts.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    Update
    Here’s a picture of the Noble installed.
    Everything works good takes a little bit longer to get hot water then I was used to with the gas hot water heater. The only problem that I am noticing now that is cold outside is the system since to short cycle. Everything is on one zone but the unit turns on gets up to temperature and shuts off. Thought about changing the thermostat to one with the temperature differential but can’t find one with Wi-Fi. Or installing a boiler buddy but do not really want to spend money on.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    Robershaw has adjustable differential and sells an adon wifi module
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    Cycling will be determined by the odr settings If they are low temp
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    Does the manual allow reducing of the vent pipe?
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    What about RS7210 Wi-Fi® touchscreen thermostat does it have a temperature differential? Right now I am using a Nest which cannot be adjusted for temperature differential.

    The manual did say 2 pipe is OK. I think tells you to reduce or not to reduce.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Also, it looks like you have an Alpha circulator pump?

    That pump has 7 different flow/speed settings.
    If it's not pumping enough volume... that would cause the boiler to hit high limit and possibly shut down quickly.
    Take a look at the current setting, maybe bump it up to the next higher setting?
    If you only have one zone... no need to use "CP" or "Auto" modes, try one of the fixed speed settings (I,II, or II) on the left side of the pump display (start with II and note the GPM rate).


    BTW- I hope that's a "work in progress" photo... on the CH return side just to the right of the LL header the isolation valve is closed.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Hmmm in looking at the I/O manual seems the minimum flow requirement is 4.5 gpm with a 45 delta, and a max of about 10 gpm with a 20 delta. 1”minimum piping required
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    I have a 1 inch model flow system.
    Pump settings
    III is 8GPM 43 watt
    II is 5GPM 22 watt
    I is 2GPM 7 watt
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    What’s the delta for the boiler loop?
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    The pump when it is on auto seems to stay around 5 to 6 GPM and 22 Watt
    Sorry monoflo System
    Look like the Delta is 3
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    Here’s a picture Delta running between 3 and 5.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    3 on the boiler loop? Don’t trust the alpha read out not accurate. Try higher speed. That delta if right on the boiler loop is causing HL shutdown.
    SuperTech
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited December 2017
    Is the boiler piped P/S, or direct?

    Edit: I see P/S.

    We are talking about the onboard pump correct?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    My post was referring to the Alpha on the CH loop....

    OP, is the (internal) boiler pump a single or 3-speed pump?
  • bob eck
    bob eck Member Posts: 928











    Stain on the floor is from the old oil tank where the oil filter was for 41 years no leak in the piping.
    This is the Lochinvar Noble 110 that delivers 2.6 GPM domestic hot water at 77 degree temp rise.
    House has one shower.
    In a two shower house I could have used the Noble 150 that delivers 3.6 GPM and install one or two good 1.5 GPM shower heads. You can derate the heating side of any Noble boiler to match the house heating load.
    You could also use the Noble 110 and dump the hot water into a 50 gallon electric water heater.
    Or go with a condensing boiler only with an IDWH
    SuperTech
  • Will82
    Will82 Member Posts: 41
    Never thought about adding a electric water heater. Would you pipe that in before or after the Combi unit and could use a 30 gallon? Waiting for hot water is definitely drawback from my old 40 gallon gas hot water heater.
  • bob eck
    bob eck Member Posts: 928
    If I was using this Noble combi boiler and putting in a 50 gallon electric WH I would put it in after it comes out of the combi boiler and hook up the elements. These elements will only come on to maintain the water temp. When starting your showers you should have a tank with full 50 gallons of hot water. Make sure you store the water hot enough to kill bacteria. Check with Lochinvar if this is ok to do and if so how to pipe it in get the manufacturers ok. 50 gallon electric WH cost less than 40 or 30 gallon electric WH.
  • Maddogg08
    Maddogg08 Member Posts: 2
    Lochinvar is american made and quite a bit simpler in design and ease of maintenance. You can turn the domestic up to 180 and add a mixing valve and get 4+ gpm w/ 70* rise. All w/ a 110k btu input. Navien is not a terrible unit .They have lots of market share. whatever you buy must be supported locally ( install and supply house)...
    SuperTech