Watts radiant onix tubing...rip out?

Alankr

Does the dirt mag filter help? Was planning to get that installed based on other posts? Do you mean I should replace cast iron pumps with something else?

Alankr

Called my heating guy about the DI filter. He said that goes on the external supply for incoming water, not on the closed loop? So that would be like putting DI water in after a flush. Is that right? It wouldn't continue to treat the water in the system?

hot_rod

Alankr said:

But my water is very hard and that's not good for a heat exchanger?  

How hard is your water?
Running through an ion exchange softener will remove the scaling minerals, but loads up the sodium ions. So you fix some of the problem by creating others.
Perhaps if the water is 30 gpm or some crazy high number, softening is the lesser of two evils.

The cartridge shown above is a fill cartridge, your water makes one pass through it, it does not circulate over and over.

They have a fixed capacity so read the application instructions. Smaller one time cartridges may do 35-50 gallons. But that too depends on the quality of the water you are filtering. High TDS will consume the cartridge quicker, of course.

I’d run a cleaner for a few days, drain then fill through a cartridge like shown.
I still like adding a conditioner if for nothing else the oxygen scavengers that they include and the film providers that coat the cleaned metals. Others will feel comfortable with plain DI water, but check ph a few days after you fill. Purifying water drops the ph and it will be aggressive until it buffers up.

Alankr

water is 25 gpm, the one faucet not on the softener gets clogged up. I think you all are correct - the issue is corrosion, not gunk from the onix breaking down. I just drained the system and ran water till it was clear - all zones ran clean without needed to flush with pressure. they installed the dirt mag filter and I'm going to add some inhibitor (they brought cleaner by mistake) and see what happens. If the problem persists in the spring I'll clean, flush and refill with the DI filter, add more inhibitor and see if that does it.

The immediate problem is that the internal circulator in the IBC boiler was stopping. When they removed it they were able to spin it free and it ran again for a few weeks. It was not dirty or clogged - the tech said it looked like the bearings got stuck. he had no explanation for that. but it happened to 3 pumps, so it's most likely not a bad part. We installed an external circulator - cast iron housing - Taco. They have been running my indirect hot water and all the radiant zones just fine, but do show signs of corrosion when taken off. Hoping this one will hold up to the corrosion and keep pumping as well.

I'll pull out some water periodically and see how it looks and clean the filter and see what it's collecting, but unless I bring in outside water, not sure what else I can do.

Thanks again for all your input and guidance!

hot_rod

Most all the ECM circs have features to prevent sized rotors. Start up features as well as an exercise function

The Caleffi Zone Pump relay will run the pump for 30 seconds if it hasn’t had a heat call in 72  hours

Alankr

The exercise feature is a good idea, but not part of what happened here. We've been in the heating season for several months and it gets called multiple times per day, but it seized up anyway. Taking it out and spinning it got it unstuck and it ran for several more weeks before getting stuck again. no visible gunk in it. It's the IBC internal circulator. The external ones (Tacos) have been running for years and are fine. This one has been replaced twice and continues to fail. We have now bypassed it and hoping that does the trick.

Local distributors and on line are out of Fernox inhibitor. Does anyone have a suggestion for something comparable? At this point I believe it's mostly a rust issue as you all have said and in small part, particles from the Onix tubing. The new filter should handle the particles and hopefully the inhibitor will minimize the rust.

Thanks again and happy holidays to you all!

kcopp

The ibc internal circ is coated to help prevent the junk from sticking to the inside.
YES, YES, YES ! Remove All/ 100% ferrous materials from the system.
Including the expansion tank. A potable water expansion tank set to 15 psi will work well.
Even if they run fine they are contributing to the problem.
I cant stress this enough.

I have used fernox and its ok.
I actually prefer the Rhomar brand or the Adey.
If you have a FW webb around their house Pure Pro is decent.

hot_rod

kcopp said:

The ibc internal circ is coated to help prevent the junk from sticking to the inside. YES, YES, YES ! Remove All/ 100% ferrous materials from the system. Including the expansion tank. A potable water expansion tank set to 15 psi will work well. Even if they run fine they are contributing to the problem. I cant stress this enough. I have used fernox and its ok. I actually prefer the Rhomar brand or the Adey. If you have a FW webb around their house Pure Pro is decent.

Is the internal pump on the IBC an electronic pump

Alankr

kcopp said: YES, YES, YES ! Remove All/ 100% ferrous materials from the system. Including the expansion tank. 

I have 7 taco circulators. One brand new. Replace them all? Are there non ferrous pumps? Probably very pricey? Most of the Tacos have been running with my water for many years. It's only with the new IBC we're having problems with the internal circulator. I think it's mechanical not electronic. It's now disabled. Removed the wheel so the water just flows thru it.

kcopp

hot_rod said:

kcopp said:

The ibc internal circ is coated to help prevent the junk from sticking to the inside.
YES, YES, YES ! Remove All/ 100% ferrous materials from the system.
Including the expansion tank. A potable water expansion tank set to 15 psi will work well.
Even if they run fine they are contributing to the problem.
I cant stress this enough.

I have used fernox and its ok.
I actually prefer the Rhomar brand or the Adey.
If you have a FW webb around their house Pure Pro is decent.

Is the internal pump on the IBC an electronic pump

PSC on the HC/ DC. Ecm on the Superflow.

From the HC manual...
Primary / Secondary piping configuration requires an extra pump, independant
from any secondary load pumps. The HC series modulating boiler includes the
boiler Primary Pump installed inside the boiler cabinet and is pre-wired. The
pump’s volute is epoxy coated to allow compatibility with the non-oxygen barrier
tubing found in some older radiant heating systems.

Alankr

Well whatever that coating was,  it didn't work. Don't really understand the rest of your message. They've installed many IBC and never used an extra pump but in this case IBC rep signed on on it. Keeping my fingers crossed this will work without replacing all the circulators.

kcopp

Do you have Pix of the install?

Alankr

kcopp

Replacing all the iron circ pumps and an expansion tank will be less $$$ than removing all the tubing.
Good luck...

SgtMaj

Why do you have over 25 psi in the system? At least that’s what the gauge looks like.

Alankr

 The most recent tech said the system should run between 10 and 30 psi? Is that wrong?

I'm not sure i understand the problem as kcopp has outlined.  It sounds like you're saying oxygen is getting in due to onix and corroding the pumps and expansion tank. Won't the filter and inhibitor take care of that? All the other circulators have been running fine.

 My heating guy says the tubing is breaking down so might I have to replace that at some point also? do you have experience with that happening? There were black bits in one sample I pulled, but no serious sludge or plugging. 

 if I replace the pumps, What kind of circ pumps should I install?

In the meantime, The system is running without the inhibitor. it will be a week probably till they order it and get back to put it in with the holiday.  Should I drain and flush the system again or just leave the water that's in there and add to it?

Thanks so.much for your continued guidance.  The local guys don't seem to know much about this and the one guy who did just retired - Bob Zima.

hot_rod

If it were me…. I would add a cleaner and run it for a week. Then a good, high pressure flush, maybe even remove the 30 lb relief valve and flush with 45 psi. The fill the system through a DI filter cartridge.
Then after all the air is out, a day or two of running, add the conditioner. I like Rhomar brand, Fernox, Sentinel, Adey, Axiom also.

Option 2 would be replace 5 pumps with stainless steel pumps, the expansion tank, and the steel fittings on top where the relief is.

The chemical treatment will be much much less expensive, but you will need to check it yearly, with a test kit, perhaps add another boost if the levels are low.

Where are you located upper NY area? Many states have rebates for upgrading the pumps, some as high as 100 per pump.
Find that info at www.dsireusa.org

https://www.rhomarwater.com/Hydronic_Treatment-Boiler_Treatment_Kit_Aerosols.html

Alankr

I'll try option 1 first. Thanks. Do I really need a high pressure flush? We just did a purge through each zone using fill water and within a few minutes each zone ran clean. Must brown water at the start,  no sludge. I'll use a cleaner next time for a week as you suggest and add the DI filter for the fill and the treatment. Would that be enough? They don't have a pressure cart to use to flush. They are trying to rent one but it will add to the cost. By still cheaper than option 2 or 3.

If I add inhibitor now would it be OK to wait till summer for the clean and flush?

hot_rod

A high pressure/ high flow will get all the heavy particles moved out.  Hooking a garden hose to the boiler drain or any connection is as good as a flush cart

I doubt the hose is breaking down, remove a foot or so  and split it open with a razor knife to see how it looks. 

Or send a sample to a lab