Installing a skim port?

philly_steam

I recently bought a house with a one-pipe steam system. It makes all kinds of knocking and hissing noises so I've been doing a lot of learning on this topic and am now aware of a few different issues with the system. It seems to me that starting with the boiler itself is the best move, and from what I've read, the bouncing water in my sight glass suggests that I should skim it.

There is no skim port and the pressure relief valve is on top of the boiler. I would assume you would install one on the top left side (see picture) but how do I get this open?

I am very new to this and will likely have a bunch of other questions so any and all thoughts are very much apprecaited.

Thanks!

Abracadabra

You'll probably have to cut and chisel that plug out. Drill, grinder, some cold chisels and a hammer will be your friend.

LionA29

What ever you do, keep the scraps out the boiler. You don't what it to be falling inside.

Kahooli

Post more pics of the piping on the other side

philly_steam

Gah. I appreciate the input but yes....having stuff fall into the boiler would seem to be the real risk there. And I don't think I'd personally take that chance.

Just because I'm curious, how is that meant to be opened? I have no doubt that it's in there too tight to get it out but it looks like that big square is intended to have a wrench of sorts to open it. I'm picturing a t-shaped lever thing.

Anyway, here is a pic of the other side. I think the only option would be the top sight glass port but I've read that it isn't a good idea? Not sure how I could keep that from making a mess either.

Also, the pressurtrol is all the way down and the gauge only bounces around a tiny little bit so the pressure would seem to be ok. But what is this pressure gauge on the top of the boiler telling me?

Thanks again!

BobC

Before trying to get that plug out I would replace the 90 degree elbow on the nipple coming out of the side outlet with a T, a nipple and a cap. There is a union below so getting it all apart should not be to hard for anybody who can handle a pair of hefy pipe wrenches.

Also with a side outlet boiler the header had better be letter perfect or your going to have problems. Post a picture of the piping above the boiler.

Bob

philly_steam

Interesting. Thanks, Bob. So you're talking about the 90 degree elbow highlighted in this pic? And you say use a cap but why wouldn't i put a valve there? I'm no stranger to managing a couple of pipe wrenches. I just didn't see think of that t as an option.

Here are 2 pics of the piping above. Not sure exactly what you want to see..

BobC

Your boiler does not have a proper header, if you look in the installation manual you will see the suggested piping and that is the MINIMUM acceptable piping. If the boiler has been making some ugly noises that piping could be the problem.

I would replace that elbow with a T and nipple (with a full port ball valve valve and cap if you want) and try giving it a good long skim. If that does it then you can live with what you have, if not some repiping might be in order.

Bob

Kahooli

That is completely wrong. That's your problem.

Kahooli

Wow they reduced from 2-1/2 to 2" right out the side. man.

neilc

LOWEST HEADER(not) EVER !
at some point that boiler needs to be repiped, properly,

right now I'm guessing the upper gage is reading boiler pressure,
the pigtail or port to the low water cutoff is clogged,
and the ptrol and lower gage are blind to the boiler,
verify the pigtail is clean and open back to the low water cutoff,

what is the ptrol set to?

Kahooli

6 PSI on the gauge? What is the pressuretrol set to?

Pigtail plugged?

MilanD

Welcome to the board.

As many have commented, seems a good looksey over on the pigtail and ptrol setting is in order. That piping is not helping either.

But, to answers your question, if I were you, I'd skim through the top of the sight glass. Shut off lower valve, remove the glass and then slowly raise water level to it. Least amount of work and for things to go wrong with. Then, once heating season is over, and if you really want to mess with it, get the boiler manual and see where else there are plugs under the jacket, and back out the one that's not 3 inch... 3/4 or 1" are easier to both get out and work with. Then you can put in a ball valve and have an access point going forward.

Look into 8 way cleaner by Rectorseal (type 8 way on amazon). Wouldn't be a bad idea to cook this boiler a bit with the 8 way to loosen up any other dirt, then do a full drain and fill, and then skim and add 8 way or steamaster tablets going forward.

Best of luck!

philly_steam

Ok -a couple of things:

1. I really appreciate all of the input.
2. Pressuretrol is set to 0.5.
3. Taking that pigtail apart will be tough and I haven't had the time yet but I'll check it out.
4. I suspect the top gauge (siphon pressure) is the one that's bad. Wouldn't the pressure relief valve trigger if the pressure were that high?
5. I replaced the main vent and that seems to have helped the knocking a bit. BUT Something new is happening. At the end of a cycle- so at the end of a cool down- the radiator closest to the boiler hisses very loud and very long.
6. I replaced all of the radiator vents with adjustable verivalves last year when we moved in.

Any thoughts on that hissing?

neilc

philly_steam said:

Any thoughts on that hissing?

5 or 6 psi could cause hissing.
(thought you said you liked twisting wrenches)
and the safety valve pops at 15 I think

Fred

@philly_steam said: "The Pressuretol is set at .5" That is the Cut-In pressure. Inside the Pressuretrol (take the one screw lose at the bottom center of the front and lift the cover off) you will find a white wheel. That needs to be set at "1" so tha the total system pressure will be around 1.5PSI max (Cut-in + Cut-out). You really do need to check and clean that pigtail. If it is clogged, the Pressuretrol won't control anything because it can't see the system pressure.
To your question: The hissing, after the boiler shuts down is a vacuum, in the system pulling the vent open and it is sucking air back into the system. Not a whole lot you can do about that but getting the system pressure under control may help.

philly_steam

@neilc -Ha! Well played. I do like turning wrenches- and taking things apart in general. I plan to check it out after the kids go to bed tonight. Little ones require both attention and working heat which makes it hard. Anyway, high pressure would cause hissing at the beginning of the cycle, no? Why would it happen at the end?

@fred -this hissing is insanely loud and only in that one radiator closest to the boiler. And it didn't used to do that. It's definitely the vacuum but what is suddenly causing that?

I've tried adjusting the radiator vents in a variety of ways but it doesn't seem to change anything.

MilanD

> @Fred said:
> To your question: The hissing, after the boiler shuts down is a vacuum, in the system pulling the vent open and it is sucking air back into the system. Not a whole lot you can do about that but getting the system pressure under control may help.

Agreed. If you run 5 or 6 psi op pressure and then the steam starts condensing at the end of the cycle, you'll have a lot of vacuum.

MilanD

Pressure builds at the beginning of the cycle. At the end, steam condensing creates vacuum a lot more quickly. 1st rad closest to the boiler may be incidental, or as steam collapses down the system, and esp. as the boiler shuts off, this may be the best vent for it. Get to good main venting and adjust down the op pressure. All this will diminish significantly if not disappear.

Fred

@philly_steam , What did you replace the main vent with? The vacuum at the end of a cycle may well be due to a main vent that is slow(er) to open at the end of a cycle. If it stays closed or is harder for the vacuum to pull open, it will pull the weakest link which is likely a radiator vent nearest the boiler. I have Barnes and Jones Bigmouth vents on my mains and I love them. They seem to open quicker than the Hoffman 75's I had on the mains before and I think the Hoffman's opened faster than the Gortons.

philly_steam

Well I took apart the pigtail and that was free and clear. I'm going to conclude that the siphon gauge is bad. It didn't budge when I had it open or when I opened the emergency valve.

I replaced the main with a Hoffman. I could blow through the new one much, much easier than the old one. But maybe drawing in isn't working...?

philly_steam

Nope. I checked and the new vent works just fine. Maybe the return is just happening too fast. But I turned all of the radiator valves to half open/closed (depending on whether you're an optimist or pessimist) which I would think would slow that down a lot. But it's definitely a vacuum. I guess I might have to bite the bullet and hire someone to go at this.

Fred

Do you only have one main? Each main should be vented and I can pretty much tell you one Hoffman vent isn't enough. How long is that Main and what size pipe? With a single Hoffman, you are building some pressure at the start of a heating cycle just trying to push air out of the mains. That is time that can me significantly improved and let the steam get to it's destination, the rads. That extra run time is wasting fuel too. That Hoffman is working fine. They have to cool enough to drop open. It is just that it appears easier for the vacuum to pull that radiator vent open first.
Main venting should be quick and radiators slow. Adequate main venting has to be in place before you can properly balance the radiators.

philly_steam

Yeah. It's one main and it runs around 3 of the 4 basement walls. 40ft maybe? And yes- one vent at the end of the line. Main line is 2.5 I believe but as was pointed out in this thread, the pipe connecting the boiler to the main is 2". I can see that causing issues but not this vacuum that only started last week.

neilc

reread what Fred wrote,
some main vents take longer to open, they have to cool down more than others, or perhaps the rad vent,
and maybe your radiator is opening first, and venting the vacuum at the end of cycle, instead of the main,
all based on temperatures,

Now about closing valves,
one pipe or two pipe?
One pipe, the valve is only all the way open, or all the way closed,
or you'll start trapping condensate in the rads and the hissing won't bother you as much cause you'll start hearing all other types of noise.

philly_steam

I shouldn't say that. I did hear mild hissing before but from different radiators. Always assumed it was on startup but maybe not. Maybe it all just somehow moved to one rad. I'll have to really observe a few cycles to be sure.

philly_steam

@neil- one pipe. When I moved in I went around making sure all valves were open. Many are insanely old with handles broken off but I used a vise grip. It's possible one or more of them could be faulty but probably not likely.

Fred

If I were you, I'd put a Barnes and Jones Bigmouth on that main. It vents at a rate equal to about 4 of those Hoffmans.

philly_steam

Now you're talkin.

neilc

philly_steam said:

But I turned all of the radiator valves to half open/closed .

did you mean vents?
adjustable vents?

Fred

philly_steam said:

Now you're talkin.

I'll bet the suction at that radiator goes away too!

philly_steam

@neil- yes. Sorry. I meant vents there.