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Heat transfer plate noise?

Gooch
Gooch Member Posts: 62
Just finished up installing transfer plates and pex to the underside of my subfloor for my main floor and I expected some noise and realize pex expands and don't expect to be able to eliminate it 100%. I have no squeeking, only thing I ever notice is some 'popping' or 'Clicking'. Is the sound I'm hearing the pex 'growing' in the track of the plates? I've got a few areas where the pex comes out of the track mid run(picture). Is this a noise issue? The only time I really notice it so far is on warmer days when there is no call of heat during the day and then in the evening on the first call for heat when the boiler sends water that it gets noisy for about a minute. I'm using ODR and by adjusting the lower end of the curve have quieted the floor down quite a bit already but if there is anything simple i can do before covering it up i'll tac
kle that aswell.


I understand PEX-AL-PEX would have been a better option but was concerned about kinking issues with trying to do a retro install.

Uponor joist track was used with pex universe PEX-B EVOH tubing.

Comments

  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,673
    edited January 2017
    Pex rubbing against Pex as it heats up will make noise but its a better choice for plate jobs IMO.

    I'd also double check to make sure all the plates screws are snug.

    What supply water temp are you running at?
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    How tight was the tube fit? It should require a mallet or impact driver to install the tube. If so, it should not creak.

    Some tube brands with a shiny EVOH barrier on the outside may allow some slipping, that may be the cause.

    ODR or constant circulation limits that expansion and contraction.

    Best to get it addressed before you cover up, it will haunt you :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    Top of the reset is 110* F. Most days running around 100.

    Did need to use a rubber mallet to install the tubing.

    The surface of the tubing was shiny.

    I agree I want to minimize the sound before covering it up.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    You might try the FAQ at www.radiantengineering.com

    If you have tight control on the temperature swing, and the tube was a snug fit, that leaves the coating.

    I know some of the tube manufacturers apply a PE coating over the shiny EVOH barrier to protect the O2 barrier. That takes the squeak out of transfer plate applications also.

    Hate to see you have to re-tube, but....
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    Is there some kind of compound (silicone or grease) I could put in the track and reinstall the tubing that wouldn't hurt heat transfer?
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    What was the reason Uponor Hepex wasn't spec'd?
  • MikeG
    MikeG Member Posts: 169
    Wouldn't it be better for the PEX to exit the plates at an actual plate end instead of just coming out of the groove mid plate?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    Sometime you need to jump out mid stream like that, for a weird layout.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Rich_49
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    Gooch said:

    Is there some kind of compound (silicone or grease) I could put in the track and reinstall the tubing that wouldn't hurt heat transfer?

    In the early days with the crappy, loose fit transfer plates you had to squeeze silicone adhesive in with the tube, same with some of the early Warmboard. A messy, messy job especially overhead.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    If I used silicone would that solve the issue in your opinion or would I be better off to retube it? If I did I'll make the effort to do it in pex-alpes and be done. But I want to avoid this mistake and what would you recommend for tube as my assumption that.pex is pex was wrong.
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,673
    I've used miles and miles worth of Uponor's hePex and Rehau's RauPex in plate installations. No noise at all.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    Bob Bona_4Rich_49
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    Gooch said:

    If I used silicone would that solve the issue in your opinion or would I be better off to retube it? If I did I'll make the effort to do it in pex-alpes and be done. But I want to avoid this mistake and what would you recommend for tube as my assumption that.pex is pex was wrong.

    I've never been able to get a thumbs up from a manufacturer regarding glues or adhesives on their tube. It's tricky to do, as too much silicone keeps the tube from clicking in tightly.

    If you don't have a lot of $$ in it, I would retube.

    Uponor is a flexible, easy to install tube, and if it is their plates maybe that is best. If I were to guess those are Radiant Engineering plates? They advise against shiny barrier tube in their product, on their website.

    You are correct PAP can be a bear to pull through a lot of holes without kinking. It helps to have a few extra hands to work PAP in overhead plates.


    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,673
    I, personally, can't think of a situation where I'd be willing to do PAP in plate install like yours. The job is tough enough. Go with the hePex and know that you did the right thing. :)
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    Bob Bona_4
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Next time consider designing for 3/8 Uponor Hepex and the JoistTrac. You're welcome :)
    Steve MinnichDan Foley
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    I just don't want to have this issue if I retube it. He pex isn't cheap and if it still does it I might go crazy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    Gooch said:

    I just don't want to have this issue if I retube it. He pex isn't cheap and if it still does it I might go crazy

    Mr Pex is another choice, Rehau also for Pex A
    You want a tube with the PE overlay on the EVOH.

    I have not used PERT, lower cost, maybe someone else has an opinion on that tube in plates?



    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,301
    Are you sure you're not hearing the pex rubbing on the holes thru the joists?
    steve
    Mark Eatherton
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    edited January 2017
    > @STEVEusaPA said:
    > Are you sure you're not hearing the pex rubbing on the holes thru the joists?

    It could be, and before I retube it I want to address this. Any recommendations? My thought was to take some 5/8 i.d. rubber hose and slit it and install through the holes.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,228
    You might try some cut up pieces of plastic milk jug, it's nice and slippery.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,673
    Pipe insulation is what I'd use. Again, I'd also make sure Pex is not rubbing against Pex anywhere. Ask me how I know this.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    GordyCanucker
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    edited January 2017
    > @Stephen Minnich said:
    > Pipe insulation is what I'd use. Again, I'd also make sure Pex is not rubbing against Pex anywhere. Ask me how I know this.

    The cheap foam stuff? Or the more expensive neoprene stuff?
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,673
    I use the rubber type foam that we use on refrigerant lines.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    Any issues experienced with the isolator talon straps?
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,673
    Yes but only with PAP and much higher water temps.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    The pex against pex is more of a squeak sound. if you rub a few pieces together in your hand you will be able to identify that sound. It seems like you are hearing more of a metallic or pop sound?

    Either the plates are moving against the floor, or the tube in the plate, is my guess. it looks like you have then screw tightly to the floor?

    The real thin flashing thickness plates will make an oil can sound as the metal distorts.


    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    edited January 2017
    The sound is more similar to that of a creak or pop ofor an old wood floor. Not metallic
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,304
    That may be pex on wood then. Isolate it from wood contact as suggested. Cheap!
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    Gordy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    Any hole in the joist or TJIs should be generously sized. Most TJIs allow up to a 1-1/2 hole to be drilled anywhere in the web, it looks like you have some type of engineered joist, check their drilling chart.

    The pre punched knockouts in those TJIs are 1-1/2"
    Usually there is a distance required between multiple holes like you have.
    With a large hole you have plenty of room to put 1/2 wall thickness insulation donuts in the hole.

    Tube against wood is usually a squeak, or creaking sound not a pop. A pop seems like an expansion noise somewhere.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Bob Bona_4
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    http://www.siouxchief.com/products/support/supply-hangers/plastic-cts/cts-isolators/suspensulator

    Would this work for the joists holes? Seems intended for it but dunno if it's meant for heating applications
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    You can do a lot of holes with pipe insulation. Chop, chop.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,012
    Overkill. The foam sleeves allow more movement compared to those.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gooch
    Gooch Member Posts: 62
    Ok. Foam it is. Thanks
  • Hubswifeteam
    Hubswifeteam Member Posts: 1
    Did the foam work? Did you find a solution?
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,607
    edited November 2018
    hot rod_7 said:

    Sometime you need to jump out mid stream like that, for a weird layout.

    When we find that this will happen we cut the plates so we can travel right out of an end .

    I also notice that the holes the HePex is traveling through should have been larger . the pex has hit the backside and has no room to move anywhere but in the plates . expansion loops would have been nice
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • AMG63
    AMG63 Member Posts: 15
    I had the same thing happen about 10 years ago (job was finished ,sheet rocked and painted). Plates have nothing to do with it. We had installed Zurn pex (never used that again) and it made the same popping sounds you are talking about. We switched it out to Uponor Hepex and not a single pop.
    We ended up settling out of court and Zurn covered most of repair costs and what not.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,281
    Is that Everhot tubing? If so, the EVOH layer is on the outside and is pretty tacky. I did the same thing once upon a time and it did get quieter over time, but after a couple months I felt bad and replace the tubing with PERT. Quiet as a mouse