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Warren Webster 0026-T "Drip Trap"..... Repair??

JUGHNE
JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
edited January 2017 in Strictly Steam
Are these true F&T's?
From what I have searched here I have not seen this 5 bolt design.
Most of these WW are not re-buildable as there are no floats available.
This is for a drip of a 4" express riser, 2 story 1949? schoolhouse.

Note: pictures too follow, if I can find them.

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,767
    Replace it. The cover bolts will likely break off if you try to get them out. Ask me how I know that :s

    Not sure if the center-to-center spacing of the pipe connections on a standard 6-bolt F&T trap (Sarco, B&J etc) is the same as on that old Webster. Measure them before you buy one. If the spacing is too large, get an inline trap.

    Maybe @Sailah can tell us what the spacing is on a B&J H-pattern F&T trap. We'll need to know what the pipe size is on the existing trap as well.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322

    Thanks, Steamhead;

    This F&T has a new gasket installed by previous repair people maybe 2 years ago. I don't know if they changed parts or just cleaned things out. The 2" drip pipe was not opened at that time, any of those I have opened after 60 years have been completely full of debris.
    I believe that floats are not available for these?? There are 3 more in the building. This particular one seems to be passing steam and sometimes then holding condensate back, eventually causing flooding of boiler.

    Is there any good logical reason why this F&T was put into this classroom?
    There is a huge boiler room directly on the other side of the wall of this classroom. There is at least a 8' drop to the condensate pump.

    I am thinking to bring the drip pipe of the 4" main thru the wall into the boiler room and drop down to eye level and install a new F&T.....maybe 3/4 instead of 1". Add strainer with blow down port and then test port after F&T in boiler room.

    Is there a maximum pipe distance the F&T can be from the actual drip connection of the main?

  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    I make an air vent for those but the floats are obsolete.

    Best solution I have is to use our 42T that mimics the piping arrangement. My pen in the inlet and you have your choice of outlets.

    Or you could use a 1" H pattern and repipe a little bit. 1" FT trap is 3 5/16" center to center on the inlet/outlet.
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    42T
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
    Thank you Peter,
    I will probably re-pipe this thru the wall to relocate the F&T into the boiler room. Then I can use your B&J H pattern.
    Twice in recent times this blew its gasket....not a good thing in a 2nd grade school room. :o

    This will be a summer job.....the saving grace for the cond pump is that the original Deadmen installed small vent pipes on the dry return which bleed most of the steam if it passes any.

    There are 3 more of these on site that were "repaired" with this one. But with no floats available I'm guessing just a clean out. Those might require your 42T.

    Question for Peter: for your H pattern, the repair cap is the same for the 3/4" and 1" (the same orifice and seat for the float).
    So there is no difference between the 3/4 & 1 F&Ts other than hub size?? The only reason for asking is according to Dan's book we should size F&Ts as small as possible to avoid wire drawing of the seats.......Thank you.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,767
    I don't have the charts but ISTR the 3/4" and 1" are pretty close in capacity. @Sailah will of course verify this.

    The reason I recommend the 6-bolt type (whether H pattern or not), even if some repiping is needed, is it makes future servicing much easier. Remove six bolts and the front plate with all the moving parts comes out. Clean the gasket surface and install a new plate assembly and you have a completely rebuilt trap. And in general, one manufacturer's 6-bolt kits will fit everyone else's.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
    I realize that now. I am snowbound (that's my story anyway) and cruising the web, learning more all the time......before I completely retire!
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Everything @Steamhead said is completely correct regarding traps.

    Yes 3/4" & 1" traps are identical other than pipe size. Most 6 bolt trap repair kits fit others. Other than Mepco and Armstrong and Watson McDaniel
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
    When I get around to this project in the spring I will pursue buying some B&J traps. Usually those available around here are from the H-man company........but he has never helped out on this web site as you have and his name is fading from memory. ;)
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 13,151
    @JUGHNE Absolutely you can pipe it through the wall and drop down.

    Your as good on steam as anybody so this isn't intended at you.

    A lot of people think the steam trap "has" to go near the equipment it drains. Baloney. People get used to seeing things in certain places and think it has to be that way because that's the way everyone does it.

    How many times have you seen a hot water job with flochecks and zone valves and no DHW? People put them on but there not needed.

    Once had a job with a bunch of steam air handlers in Boston on district steam. Piped by a hot water guy with no clue.

    Vacuum breakers on the coils dripping water on peoples desks, water hammer in the coils. They came out of the bottom condensate connection of the coil straight into the trap with no drop. problem was the AHUs were hung low and the trap rested on the ceiling grid

    Some we couldn't fix. They would have to raise ahu.

    some of the others we took the trap off and piped into a janitors closet dropped down put the trap on and got into the return or used a condensate pump.

    True, the "condensate" line now carries steam ntil you get to the trap but never had a problem as long as you can get some pitch.

    As far as I am concerned the lower the trap below the equipment it drains the better more head on the inlet the better

    Those traps are sure UGLY. As for sizing supposed to find the actual weight of the section of main the trap is draining (weight of pipe and fittings x specific heat of steel and temp rise.

    very seldom is anything larger than 3/4 needed

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
    Yes, a trap with a face that only a mother could love. :)
    This is a drip for a 4" express riser, book does call for 1" F&T, which is what I will go for. Thanks
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 829
    edited January 2017
    Just for fun, we rebuilt a #026 with surplus OEM Webster internal float parts and sent it to B&J for testing.

    Please go to and subscribe to the Barnes and Jones YouTube channel and leave your comments on the page below.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AHPBwyn2P8
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    MilanD
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
    Thanks Gordo; this also showed up on the search function for this site.
    The one being tested is different than what I pictured above.
    Yours has a plug in the top center and only one tap in the bottom.
    Mine has the nameplate in top center and 2 1" plugs in the bottom. FWIW
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 829
    edited January 2017
    @JUGHNE : You are welcome. The #0026 (the one inch size) is a more rare overall and a bit more difficult to repair than the #026 (1-1/4" size) and the parts are much harder to find.

    It can take years to find those parts.

    The 5 cover bolts are the main issue. There is a 60% chance that one or more will break. That rises to near 100% if the old gasket has leaked and rust is visible. At least that part for you is not likely, as someone has replaced the old gasket. They might have even used anti-seize... maybe.

    We have a few we've been treating in our shop with a 50-50 mixture of acetone and ATF fluid waiting for the summer.

    Oh, it gets better!

    The first thing you are confronted with if you remove the cover is a cast iron cross bar and a 1/4" or so square-head set screw holding the cross bar and float assembly in place. That set screw must be loosened in order to remove it. It can break off. Yeah, fun.

    Once the cross bar has been wiggled out, then you can jiggle out the float ball and valve assembly. You will most likely find the seat and stem worn out. The part is OEM and made of mostly unattainium, as you found out.

    So, when you remove it and replace it, think about sending one or so to us for our petting zoo!
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
    edited August 2017
    Gordo, the ugly duckling has been removed. The 5 bolts came out, the top off, the square set screw came out (6 point socket with impact drill), Even both 1" nipples came out. All thanks to Kroil spray and bench vise.
    The float looks intact, can hear what sounds like buckshot inside,
    it seems to be buoyant it that it does not immediately sink in water.

    Where do you want it sent? Or it will become 13.6 pounds of scrap someday for someone.

    Note: or better yet maybe Peter will give me some trade-in allowance for a 1" H pattern as the F&T is to be relocated into the boiler room. ;)
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 829
    @JUGHNE : Thanks! If you could see your way to sending it to our shop in Towson, MD, that would be great!
    We have obtained a few sets of OEM parts to rebuild it and we will add it to our collection.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Ha I think we have a few laying around already but thanks for the offer. Better off in Gordos hands.
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,322
    Gordo, is your shipping address the one on the Web site?
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 829
    @JUGHNE : Yes, sir. 310 Centre Av.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc