New Heating System - what type?

DavidMitten

Hi -
I live in Northern Michigan in a 120 year old house. I will be installing a new heating system in my house for a few reasons:
1). My in-laws created more living space(converted the garage and porch)
2). The forced air system is undersized and has completely inappropriate duct sizing, velocities, and CFM's It also has created an incredibly dry environment(I haven't lived in a house heated with a furnace for decades - it's weird.
3). I love steam and hydronic heat.
4). It is easier to run pipes to rooms than it is to run ducts
5). I am undoing all the screw-ups of the previous "handyman - a.k.a. house flipper".

Is it totally off the chain crazy to design a new single pipe steam system, or is it more practical to design a hydronic system?
I will need to purchase radiators for each room, and need separate zoning for the bedrooms. Even if I go with hot water, I would like to install cast iron radiators in several of the rooms because they are architecturally appropriate.

SlamDunk

it comes down to money. Labor to run new pipe in a house is not cheap. neither are radiators. duct is inexpensive.

black pipe ranging from 2" to 3/4" ,including fittings , is expensive.

If you can do it, you should.

nicholas bonham-carter

I agree with all you say about the discomfort of forced air heating systems, especially so when so badly installed!
We love steam here, but hot water systems are more adaptable to zoning, and not so sensitive to the slope of pipes.
Do a heat loss of the various parts of the house, using the SlantFin app for a tablet. It will aid you in selecting the size of radiator needed for each room, and of the boiler.
Make sure that any used radiator is suitable for hot water, (sections connected at the top, and bottom).--NBC

DavidMitten

I simply will not live in a house with a forced air system.
Thanks.

Harvey Ramer

Good news! You are starting from scratch so you can future proof your system. From a comfort standpoint, steam and hot water are neck and neck. However with hydronics you will enjoy a lot more flexibility in system design and product selection. Also, if you do go with Hydronic’s, seriously consider over sizing the radiation to the point that you can heat the house with 120 -125 degree water on the coldest day of the year, (design day). This will open up the doors to a buffet of heat generation products, and future proof the system. You'll be able to use Air to water HP, Geothermal HP, Thermal solar, Condensing boilers that condense all the time and run at peak efficiency, and the list goes on.

My pick would be Hydronic’s, because of those reasons. Some will say steam because that's what they like. Figure out what works for you. Either one will be a vast improvement over forced air.

Fred

@DavidMitten , Good for you! I personally prefer steam and heat with it. I have two forced air systems that provide central air and are a backup if/when the steam system may be down which has only been a few days (less then five) over the past 26 years. I am sure this thread will be a hot spot of opinions over the next few days, regarding steam, hot water, radiant, boiler type(s) etc. Stick to your guns. An incremental added upfront cost is well worth it for many, many years of comfort.

SlamDunk

I'm like fred. i have both, too. It comes down to money. From scratch, a steamsystem is more expensive by a multiple of 4+ for me. Like I said, if you can, you should. Steam is considered the Cadillac of heating systems for a good reason.

Bio

Search for a minitube steam system, it may be very accessible cost wise

Eastman

Behold! The pinnacle of human achievment: The Iron Fireman Select Temp mini-tube steam system.

Fred

Bio said:

Search for a minitube steam system, it may be very accessible cost wise

Maybe @gerry gill will weigh in on this possibility. He is a fantastic steam Pro and I believe he installed a minitube steam system in his home. He is from the Cleveland, ohio area.

Eastman

The benefits of the Select Temp system are:

1. very small tubing
2. a truly zoned system
3. boiler is sized to heat loss and not radiator EDR

ChrisJ

I like steam and prefer it over hot water, mainly because I hate dealing with bleeding air.

That said, you can't go wrong with a good hot water setup either. There's nothing like nice warm tile and wood floors and radiant doesn't take up floor space.

I haven't experienced one yet, but I hear rumor that a good forced air system also works well, but they're rare especially in residential.

I suppose like anything, who you hire to engineer and install the system is likely more important than the type of system. All of them, be it steam, radiant, baseboard hot water or forced air really suck when done wrong.

If you want an opinion, if it was mine, I'd go for steam with cast iron radiators. That's my personal preference.

Bio

As well as Gerry, here's another wallie replacing his system to a minitube

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/142964/new-mini-tube-installation

Jamie Hall

I too prefer steam, but for a variety of reasons -- most of which @Harvey Ramer has pointed out -- I think I would opt for hydronic in a new install. You get most of the benefits of steam, but the actual installation is easier, and the zoning flexibility much much easier. I'm not quite sure myself whether i would go as far as Harvey did regarding oversized radiation, though, since one of the benefits of steam is the warm to hot radiators -- there's a tremendous comfort factor there. There is, though, a tradeoff -- if the radiation is really sized for relatively low temperature water, you do have options beyond relying entirely on fuel burning boilers.

One additional item in favour of hot water over steam in a very old house, such as what you are playing with, is you get a lot more flexibility in routing pipes, and you can use smaller pipes or even PEX for additional flexibility. A consideration not to be disregarded! Also, it is very compact -- the modern boilers are astonishingly small, and can be vented in a wide variety of ways.

ChrisJ

@Jamie Hall Steam is Hydronic heat.

Eastman

I just want to point out that, while a Select Temp system is a type mini-tube system, not all mini-tube systems are Select Temp systems.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

@Jamie Hall Steam is Hydronic heat.

You know perfectly well what I meant... I hope...

KC_Jones

I'd like to put in a vote for cast iron emitters of some kind regardless of what is powering them. Of course you have to like the look of whatever you use. Something about a nice warm piece of cast iron.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

I'd like to put in a vote for cast iron emitters of some kind regardless of what is powering them. Of course you have to like the look of whatever you use. Something about a nice warm piece of cast iron.

Pervert!

ChrisJ

Fred said:

KC_Jones said:

I'd like to put in a vote for cast iron emitters of some kind regardless of what is powering them. Of course you have to like the look of whatever you use. Something about a nice warm piece of cast iron.

Pervert!

Hmmm.
Fred, you ok?

hot_rod

Blend some radiant floor areas in kitchen and baths if possible.

Panel radiators are another nice and easy retro fit. Quick responders a wide range of shapes and sizes, low temperature operation, easily zoned.

The concept of heating a home at design conditions with 120° supply is very attractive as Harvey mentioned. Every imaginable heat source works, like solar thermal and even air to water heat pumps.

BobC

@ChrisJ @Fred remember Tom Lehrer's Aunt Hortense's words -

When correctly viewed, everything is lewd.

Bob

Brewbeer

I ditched a badly executed forced air system for a low temperature hot water system with oversized radiation similar to what Harvey mentioned. The system is so comfortable that you can't hear it or feel it. See my system details in the link in my signature.

Do it. Once it's running, you won't be disappointed.

DavidMitten

OK. thanks for the suggestions and information.

EBEBRATT-Ed

being a pipefitter I am not a forced air fan. Forced air does not work well in some buildings at all.

However forced air suffers the same as any other botched system design.

If done correctly in the right building it can work well.

........................kills me to say it

jumper

Search for Igor's articles here. With modern materials you can use flexible tubing for steam. Except for the boiler itself steam is actually simpler than heating hot water.Especially for larger buildings.

John Mills_5

I grew up in a house with a converted gravity system so I know the comfort possible. It was also incredibly dry. Dry house is from infiltration, not how you heat it. Unless money is no issue, forced air can be comfortable IF done right which few are. Today's 2 stage and modulating equipment can make for some pretty comfortable temps. Couple that with the matching zoning system and you could have it pretty nice. Then you could add the air cleaners, humidifiers, cooling, etc. that you can't with hydronic heat.

ChrisJ

John Mills said:

I grew up in a house with a converted gravity system so I know the comfort possible. It was also incredibly dry. Dry house is from infiltration, not how you heat it. Unless money is no issue, forced air can be comfortable IF done right which few are. Today's 2 stage and modulating equipment can make for some pretty comfortable temps. Couple that with the matching zoning system and you could have it pretty nice. Then you could add the air cleaners, humidifiers, cooling, etc. that you can't with hydronic heat.

John,
I had recently read that air filters in systems do absolutely nothing to actually clean the air in a house and doesn't result in any less dust in the home. The results said it only protects the ductwork from dust, which provides little benefit. They claim, dusty ductwork also does not result in more dust in the home.

What are your feelings on this? I had done quite a bit of reading on it as I'm adding a forced air cooling system to my home and needed to decide what kind of filters I would be using. Best I could tell, the filters are of little benefit to those in the home and should be used mainly to keep the evaporator clean. I was planning on simple MERV 8 filters.


Stand alone humidifiers work very well with hydronics.

jumper

My theory is that comfort depends quite a bit on temperature of interior surfaces. If they are too cold the air has to be warmer for comfort. Old world buildings with thick stone walls stay cool all summer. But heating is a challenge.

ChicagoCooperator

I would at least do two-pipe steam over one-pipe. But... I take it you aren't adding cooling (I am going out on a limb and assuming the UP rather than upper lower Michigan).

One thing I don't think anybody mentioned was resale - if steam is rare in your area or there is nobody to service the system it might be a liability versus hydronic (plus you can get heating floors, etc, more easily than with steam) if you had to sell.

gerry gill

i think if i lived in norther michigan i would pipe in a two pipe vapor steam system with a boiler converted to millivolt.

DavidMitten

Mostly I wanted to see if anyone had a preference over one and two pipe steam, and ease of installation between the two types. I will be installing the system, so the burden is on me.
Unfortunately, steam heat for residences is not as popular here in Michigan as it is on the east coast and in Chicago land.
I appreciate your insights.
After some consideration, I will probably go with a hot water system. This is not because I prefer it, because I think steam heat is the best, especially when in the middle of winter, when you come in from outside and can crank up the radiators.
The reason I will probably go with a water system is that my house is a bed and breakfast. One of my goals in installing a new system is individual zoning for the guest rooms. I also have a lead on a Weil Mclain boiler that I can use for the system.
I will probably end up buying cast radiators from a refurbisher in Chicago. They are my favorite due to thermal mass, and are architecturally appropriate for my house( built in 1896). I have to think this part through because I installed Myson radiators in my old house and I really liked them(so does my wife).
I did not know that slant fin offered their software on line.Yay! I am currently a Mac user, and I have to use a convert program to run PC programs. however I did an energy analysis with HVAC calc(that is what I think it was called). I will also run the slant fin program because all information helps in analysis.
Of course I would like to melt snow with the system too, and could do that with a condensate loop if I chose steam, but I am pretty sure I will go with hot water hydronic.
Another future option with hydronic is the use of the Austrian company- ETA's wood gasification boiler. Wood burning is very popular in this area.
I just got involved in a steam project though, so I will post next on that.
Thanks!

Steamhead

One more advantage of steam is that the pipes and radiators drain dry when the system is off, greatly minimizing damage from freezing in an extended power or fuel failure.

You can zone each radiator in a steam system with a thermostatic radiator valve.

I'd look seriously at Gerry Gill's setup. That's what I'd put in a house if I were building or renovating one.

jumper

DavidMitten said:

Mostly I wanted to see if anyone had a preference over one and two pipe steam, and ease of installation between the two types.

I suspect it was much quicker to hook up one pipe radiators than two pipe in dead men days. Nowadays there's flexible tubing for returns.

AMservices

In terms of reliability, efficiency and comfort, STEAM IS KING.
When it comes mechanical systems, the phrase" you get what you pay for" says everything.
If you weigh the cost installing a high efficient condensing boiler with radiant floors, zones in each room, all the new controls, zone valves, thermostat, wires and 100 more points of failure, compared to the cost of a steam boiler that uses next to nothing for electricity, some black pipe and thermostatic radiator valves, I would bet that they are close in comparison with the steam system coming in just under the cost of all the new forced hot water systems.
Steel pipe is expensive, especially large steel pipe, but it lasts forever. A properly designed steam heating system will not die. In fact I have never come across 100 year old steam system
( more specifically one that used to burn coal or wood) that wasn't still working the day I decommissioned it
But I have seen plenty of condensing boilers that look like they're ready to "S" the bed after 15 years. Modulating boilers need to be checked every year. Gaskets need to be replaced, combustion needs to be checked, you have to worry about the direction the wind is blowing and if you do experience a failure you can kiss the 15% you saved on combustion efficiency goodbye when the service technician hands you a bill that's four digits long.
If I was designing a new steam system from scratch, it would be a two pipe Vapor vacuum system. I would install vacuum pump to pull the air out and lower the atmospheric pressure in the system, thereby lowering the boiling point, decreasing standby losses and increasing the volume of steam for every pound of water.
If it wasn't for the fact that after the war our country needed a cheaper heating system that could be installed quickly, I like to think steam heating would still be favored among contractors. When you making Steam it willingly moves towards the lowest point of pressure, when your heating water and need to force it through the piping, right there the word "force" means you're making something do what it doesn't want to.
Might as well be called "Rape" hot water.

jumper

>>If I was designing a new steam system from scratch,<<
My dream system would run flexible tubing through conduits. That would take care of insulation and make it easy to replace tubing so that I don't need steel pipe. Since I'm an old guy I really really appreciate the comment,>>100 more points of failure<<.

I'd also look into unfired steam. ( I hear that welded plate heat exchangers are reasonable.) So all the fired boiler's water stays in boiler room. How's that for fool proof reliability? Only question left is steam or very hot water to power the heat exchanger?

John Mills_5

I think a good filter helps and constant airflow, while having drawbacks, helps to pull air & dust through the filter. BUT, most dust that comes in however it comes in will land somewhere and not be pulled into the filter and caught. Then people think something is wrong with the filter.

ChrisJ

John Mills said:

I think a good filter helps and constant airflow, while having drawbacks, helps to pull air & dust through the filter. BUT, most dust that comes in however it comes in will land somewhere and not be pulled into the filter and caught. Then people think something is wrong with the filter.

What do you mean, think something's wrong? Customer said they just changed it last week.

LionA29

Was there a Sandstorm or something

hot_rod

A coal mine nearby?

ChrisJ

LionA29 said:

Was there a Sandstorm or something

hot rod said:

A coal mine nearby?

It was sarcasm.
People apparently, very often say they change their filters constantly, but they don't.