This is a silly idea

pm124

This guy thinks he can apply tech to a steam system.

hvacfreak2

Shoot , that is a fantastic idea. Someone stuck with an oversized radiator in a room , a renter of a space that on a larger system with problems , etc. It's definitely not for every radiator on a functioning system as it really stops the radiant effect that makes CI radiators great.

ChrisJ

Sigh.

Not this again.

Abracadabra

pm124 said:

This guy thinks he can apply tech to a steam system.

I don't think it's silly... unless you were being sarcastic.
@Dan Holohan brought it up about 2 years ago that they were launching that product.

ChrisJ

Abracadabra said:

pm124 said:

This guy thinks he can apply tech to a steam system.

I don't think it's silly... unless you were being sarcastic.
@Dan Holohan brought it up about 2 years ago that they were launching that product.

I didn't like it back then, and I still don't like it.

Curious,
Does anyone know how they are doing at this point?

DanHolohan

Marshall Cox is brilliant and this product works as stated. You guys need to learn more. The company is growing and thriving and you will hear more and more about Radiator Labs.

DanHolohan

More: https://heatinghelp.com/blog/invisible-tenants/

MilanD

Well, it's a high tech balancing solution! Wow, nice! It arrests the radiation which stops the condensing proccess and thus keeps the steam from giving out btu, which stops the flow of steam to the rad. Essentially, a thermo-dynamic trv allowing heat out only by truning on a small fan. Quite brilliant, and quite simple tech controlls. Powe source is needed for each rad, and on poweroutage days, remove cover, or have a battery back-up?

This thing in combo with some kind of trap monitoring can really green that steam. Wow.
Good for them, and good for earth!

https://www.radiatorlabs.com/our-system/how-it-works/

RomanGK_26986764589

I've heard and read about them. I still don't get why not just use a simple TRV?

Canucker

> @RomanGK_26986764589 said:
> I've heard and read about them. I still don't get why not just use a simple TRV?

Not always possible when you don't own the building

RomanGK_26986764589

@Canucker It's not that hard to unscrew an old vent and put a TRV in. Radiator Labs mentioned that they need to send a pro to install their "Cozy" cover. They look more expensive too. If it's a 2 pipe steam, you can control how much steam gets into a rad via a valve. No?

ChrisJ

RomanGK_26986764589 said:

@Canucker It's not that hard to unscrew an old vent and put a TRV in. Radiator Labs mentioned that they need to send a pro to install their "Cozy" cover. They look more expensive too. If it's a 2 pipe steam, you can control how much steam gets into a rad via a valve. No?

I agree with you and have since the start of this. If I don't want heat in a room I don't let the air out of the radiator. Not only does the radiator not hear, the piping to it doesn't either. If I want a small amount of heat, the TRV vents the radiator slow.

However, they apparently have a product that functions as advertised and people want it. We can't be upset about that.

I wish them the best of luck.

RomanGK_26986764589

@ChrisJ Interesting. Last time I heard they weren't able to source necessary amount of money on the crowdfunding web cites to start full production. I need to check again.

ChrisJ

RomanGK_26986764589 said:

@ChrisJ Interesting. Last time I heard they weren't able to source necessary amount of money on the crowdfunding web cites to start full production. I need to check again.

I'm just going by what Dan said above.

Canucker

> @RomanGK_26986764589 said:
> @Canucker It's not that hard to unscrew an old vent and put a TRV in. Radiator Labs mentioned that they need to send a pro to install their "Cozy" cover. They look more expensive too. If it's a 2 pipe steam, you can control how much steam gets into a rad via a valve. No?

I agree with you, but I never said a TRV was difficult to install. We aren't the target market for it. I'm just not sure a landlord would like it if I installed one without their knowledge. If I'm remembering the article that @Dan Holohan put up awhile back, it was a non invasive solution to a problem that apartment dwellers have. I think that was the key; no pipe work, no liability

DanHolohan

They're proving amazing results in real buildings. I was their biggest skeptic. No more. I opened my mind and learned a lot.

MilanD

> @RomanGK_26986764589 said:
> I've heard and read about them. I still don't get why not just use a simple TRV?

Can be installed on a running system - no down time, more accurate temp. control.

Real life application proved concept and is saving energy. Controls are more accurate, and everything can be controlled by a computer or an app. giving greater system flexibility and ability to really fine tune it, remotely and with a key stroke.

And, you don't need a wrench, only a clock-wise screw driver.

I wish I thought of it first

DanHolohan

Exactly. Marshall Cox is as close to genius as I've ever met. He listened hard to all my skepticism, smiled, kept talking and then proved it. He asked me to be an advisor. I said yes. He gave me a piece of the company. I took it and then gave it back and told him to reinvest it and grow. He, like Tesla, doesn't know what can't be done. He just does it.

Those who don't get it are where I was several years ago. Learn.

MilanD

@Dan Holohan

And to note: he was literally thinking inside the box!

DanHolohan

The guy has patents on stuff that made my head spin. None of them have anything to do with heating. And he's younger than my daughters.

He reminded me about the power of shutting up and just listening. At my age, I really needed that and will be forever grateful.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

I have no doubt that the device works as advertised. And, it is clearly more accurate at holding temp than a TRV.

That being said, I'm going to take a WAG and figure that the device costs at least $500. installed. A TRV costs about $150.

So, the question begs as to how this individual has developed a market at that price point when a TRV can do 90% of what the device can do at a fraction of the cost.

How about a computer controlled TRV with a vent that has a 1 way checkvalve. On the other side, a CO2 tank is setup to force air using an injector into the radiator under pressure to stop heating during a cycle. Not much, just enough to break the cycle without shutting down the steam supply.

Call it a TRV Plus and sell it for $250.

DanHolohan

Hat & Chris, you guys are skeptical by nature. I get that, but I also know what I've seen. I fought Marshall every step of the way with this thing until he showed me, in the real world, in the actual market, what can be achieved. He proved it in building after building. I'm convinced.

DanHolohan

We're not. Marshall doesn't touch old pipes with wrenches. No risk of breaking things (the unexpected intangible in any old building). He just saves lots of fuel and tells where the bad steam traps are remotely, through a free app. He has proved it again and again in the real world.

But please continue to be skeptical. It's healthy.

MilanD

@Hatterasguy

Because large users, businesses, various other large entities, etc, can amortize this over longer periods of time and pay less tax and less fuel over a long period of time. That's called value add. Throw in gov incentives, and it's a win for all big businesses.

I only wonder if this will be available with rebates for single family homes? Care to guess?

MilanD

But, it's brilliant for all the reasons Dan just listed.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

I have no doubt that the device works as advertised. And, it is clearly more accurate at holding temp than a TRV.

That being said, I'm going to take a WAG and figure that the device costs at least $500. installed. A TRV costs about $150.

So, the question begs as to how this individual has developed a market at that price point when a TRV can do 90% of what the device can do at a fraction of the cost.

How about a computer controlled TRV with a vent that has a 1 way checkvalve. On the other side, a CO2 tank is setup to force air using an injector into the radiator under pressure to stop heating during a cycle. Not much, just enough to break the cycle without shutting down the steam supply.

Call it a TRV Plus and sell it for $250.

Why do you need the CO2 injection? Stop the venting and the rad must stop condensing..................

Of course, if the rad completely fills with steam (a rarity).........................

Once a radiator on a single pipe system has steam in it, the steam stays until the boiler stops firing. If you stop venting 1/4 of the way only a 1/4 of the radiator heats, but it won't stop until the steam supply ends.

The CO2 + injector fixes that, giving better control over the TRV. It makes it possible to shut down a radiator mid cycle.

I was simply addressing your complaints regarding about a TRVs ability to control temperature precisely.


@Dan Holohan It's not that I'm skeptical, it's that I don't like the solution. It's ok, there's a lot of stuff out there I don't like. I'd start a list, but I doubt the forum has enough space. We could start with Pizza..............

Like I said, it obviously works, and it's a product people want.

You can't go wrong selling something people want. That's something no one can argue.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

Once a radiator on a single pipe system has steam in it, the steam stays until the boiler stops firing. If you stop venting 1/4 of the way only a 1/4 of the radiator heats, but it won't stop until the steam supply ends.

The CO2 + injector fixes that, giving better control over the TRV. It makes it possible to shut down a radiator mid cycle.

I was simply addressing your complaints regarding about a TRVs ability to control temperature precisely.

Yes, that would work.

Having a CO2 tank in a residential apartment..............not so much.

Are they not allowed, like LPG tanks?
I figured people probably have that Soda fountain kit in apartments, so why not.

It'd only use a small amount of CO2 to force air into the radiator.

Fred

Not to mention taking it off and getting it refilled periodically.

ChrisJ

@Hatterasguy @Fred just answered your question.
You take the tanks and swap them for a refill. The place filling them certifies them, just as with any tank.

Or here's a disposable one used with the Soda Stream.

https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/sodastream-reg-130-liter-spare-carbonator/1042048428?skuId=42048428&mcid=PS_googlepla_nonbrand_kitchenelectrics_&product_id=42048428&adpos=1o2&creative=43742642989&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KEQiAwMLDBRDCh_r9sMvQ_88BEiQA6zuAQ7Z1ZSWCNvIOADTfj7zs3zbn-L7VMyjAW9n77BCcdiIaAimJ8P8HAQ



Who would monitor it!? The computer controlled TRV would. A light would come on saying you need a refill.

It'd come with a pretty fabric cover for the tank.

Done, and done.

Eastman

Alright, let's stop beating around the bush.... I don't want to negate the need for a product like the radiator cozy, but...

WHERE ARE THE SMART RADIATOR VALVES??? ?

?

Why are the TRVs not coordinating to balance the system? Why are boilers still sized to the connected load? I want a radiator valve that intelligently delays and manages venting as necessary. I want a radiator valve that phones home the demands of the occupants and the actual temperature. And I want it to work with low self discharge NiMH Eneloop AA batteries or their equivelents.

ChrisJ

Eastman said:

Alright, let's stop beating around the bush.... I don't want to negate the need for a product like the radiator cozy, but...

WHERE ARE THE SMART RADIATOR VALVES??? ?

?

Why are the TRVs not coordinating to balance the system? Why are boilers still sized to the connected load? I want a radiator valve that intelligently delays and manages venting as necessary. I want a radiator valve that phones home the demands of the occupants and the actual temperature. And I want it to work with low self discharge NiMH Eneloop AA batteries or their equivelents.

I'll do you one better.

Why doesn't the US have the programmable TRV heads Europe already has, for the same device! The Danfos programmable actuator fits our TRVs, but, it's not for sale here.

I like your area, but the fact we can't even buy something that already exists overseas baffles me.

MilanD

We are all talking here about different controls for unbalanced and overfired or overpressurised systems in large buildings that would take a lot of manhours to balance using the existing 70 year technology, and then hope no tennant touches anything and throw off the balance.

As to availability of euro style trv controls, there is probably no demand here for it to warrant ecinomy of scale, or someone would have imported it. Euro, for the most part is all hydronic and some minisplit heat pumps. Electricity is expensive too, so water rad is the way to go almost everywhere. I'm also betting these not being available here has to do with our litigious ways and the liability insurance cost, like what did in EcoSteam...

The "cozy" does all this by not touching a thing, saving time on install, and only needing installing once. Only mechanical thing on it is an electric motor. Ones on magnetic bearings can last for ever. Then, you set it and forget it. Nothing to break and it works even if the system is all out of wack. And it can be programmed remotely, system tech can diagnose it remotly, each room gives you temp reading in real time, and it also allows for steam to distribute everywhere in most economical way. So, it's a self balancing "cozy" SYSTEM too... Brilliant. On an overfired overheating overpressurised system, bringing energy use down by 25% and providing comfort too - double brilliant!

My only question of it is impact on old radiators to be enclosed under temps like this 24/7... Will the rad fail sooner under extreme temps, or are the temps even that extreme, or does it even matter? But I'm sure they took it into account and thought of it too...

As I said before, I wish I thought of it... Not so brilliant... Lol

DanHolohan

Big buildings, where most of the Cozy products are going, have two-pipe steam. To put a TRV on two-pipe, you have to change out the supply valve on each radiator. That can get very expensive, and disruptive to tenants.

Gordy

Funny part may be mr. Cox was probably sippin a beer in a kuzzie one hot summer day when the light bulb went off. Hey what if.....hmmm.

Kudos to his idea, and success. All the people who just threw a blanket on a radiator missed their mark......

DanHolohan

Actually, he was visiting his brother in NYC and sleeping on the floor by a steam radiator that was out of control. He was so hot that he decided to wrap a quilt around the radiator to calm it down. That's what gave him the idea. He had no connection to the heating industry.

The Cozy is so much more than an enclosure. It's actually a very smart building-management system.

Seriously, guys, don't take this fella lightly. I made that mistake at first.

Gordy

The repercussions of simplicity always fascinate me.

DanHolohan

Read about these guys: https://www.radiatorlabs.com/us/

DanHolohan

And listen to him talk about what he's done in the real world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI_zzXTenEk

JohnNY

ChrisJ said:

there's a lot of stuff out there I don't like. I'd start a list, but I doubt the forum has enough space. We could start with Pizza..............

Does ChrisJ not like pizza? Is that what I just read?

Heresy, I tell ya.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/realestate/radiators-steam-heat-temperature-control.html?_r=0

BobC

He just took the throw a blanket over the radiator to lessen the heat output and wrapped some technology around it BUT he is the guy who thought it through.

Curiosity is a wonderful thing, I hope he makes a killing with it.

Bob

Boon

This solution effectively reduces the EDR, right? Doesn't that makes the boilers oversized?