Big Mouth Vents - How Installed and Vendor ?

SteamHeat

Hello Everyone,

I have been reading the posts about the Barnes and Jones Big Mouth vent.
Two questions come to mind.
1. How are they installed? It looks like they have a tailpiece and a union. How do you tighten the tailpiece into the coupler? It looks pretty small. Channellock? Then tighten union nut against the valve body?
2. Who is a good internet supplier? Amazon lists them out of stock - don't know if they will be back.

I have a Hoffman 4A vent in the home of a family member and there is only 5/16 inch space between the side of the Hoffman and a floor supporting beam. I would like to help them try a Big Mouth in place of the Hoffman, but not sure if it will be installable due to the tight space. That's why I am asking about the tailpiece and the union.

TIA

STEAM DOCTOR

-5/8" Allen wrench for the tailpiece. Then tighten union
-Only available through Amazon

Sailah

I just finished 100 if you need them sooner than a week feel free to call me. Apologies, holidays got away from us.

A trick if you don't have a 5/8" allen. Tighten the entire assembly using wrenches off the piping. Really tight, you can't hurt the union nut I've tried. Dope up threads and install, using union nut to thread it in. Should have plenty of friction to install.

The Vari Vent is 1" shorter at 3.75" total height and vents 2.5CFM vs 3.6CFM for the Big Mouth. Only come sin 1/2" NPT though.

SteamHeat

Thanks guys. Is there a post which shows the pieces of the valve from multiple angles? I cannot envision where the allen wrench seats. Perhaps I am not imaging the way the pieces mate up correctly. Thanks.

Sailah

SteamHeat said:

Thanks guys. Is there a post which shows the pieces of the valve from multiple angles? I cannot envision where the allen wrench seats. Perhaps I am not imaging the way the pieces mate up correctly. Thanks.

It's inside the tailpiece.

SteamHeat

Ah, I see now. So I can open the union, use the Allen wrench to screw the tailpiece into the coupler at the top of the dry return, then position the valve body, and tighten the union to affix the valve body atop the tailpiece. Very nice!

One last question: How far past the perimeter of the tailpiece does the back of the valve body extend? (I only have a small amount of clearance to the wooden beam next to the Hoffman 4A.)

Thank you for your help.

Sailah

I'll have to measure it tomorrow. not sure off the top of my head. In the original thread it shows a good profile shot let me know what you want measured

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/158197/latest-round-of-air-vent-testing-thank-you-barnes-jones

Neild5

I didn't have a 5/8 Allen wrench handy but a 7/16 bolt has a 5/8 head. I put a nut on it and a socket tightened it nicely.

Sailah

^^^^^^That's a great trick I've used a lot on motorcycles.

SteamHeat

Peter, Thank you. Here is a jpeg with the dimensions I am seeking marked. Please forgive the crude nature of the drawing. It is not a specialty of mine.

BobC

Knowing that vent has a 3/4" thread i would guess both to be a little less then 3/4". I have one mounted but it's not in an area i can easily reach.

Bob

Sailah

SteamHeat said:

Peter, Thank you. Here is a jpeg with the dimensions I am seeking marked. Please forgive the crude nature of the drawing. It is not a specialty of mine.

The "green" dimension is 5/8" and the blue dimension is 3/4". That's measuring from the plane formed by the cover and the outlet to the crest of the threads halfway up the threads.

SteamHeat

Thank you Peter. I will now re-check the clearance, but I think I would have to use a wood chisel to carve a little space into the wooden beam where the cover would contact it. I do not know why so little clearance was left between the Hoffman 4A and the beam. I guess I would have had to have been there in 1950 to know why. Many thanks.

Sailah

I could machine off the outlet since it serves no purpose if that makes it easier. No returns on that one though. ..lol

SteamHeat

See Pix.

Sailah

You could also use a couple street elbows which would allow you to clock the vent away from that joist. Probably the easiest and cleanest way to do it.

SteamHeat

Thank you Peter. Do you know of a manufacturer that makes a compact street elbow that would require very little clearance to thread on? Or am I still going to have to carve a dent in the joist? Also, I do not know if I will still have clearance to the subfloor above?

Sailah

Doh didn't think of theading on the street elbow. No I don't know of a low profile elbow.

Sailah

You have plenty of height it looks like you just need to remove some of the wood. I don't think it's much to be honest.

Fred

If you have room to put a union on there, by taking that coupling under the the old vent off and screwing the union onto that nipple, then you can use another short/close nipple on the other half of the union, an elbow and a street elbow, turned up. That will get you away from that joist and it can all be assembled on the floor and then the two union halves connected.

SteamHeat

Thanks guys. I will have to take some more measurements. I think there is only 1.5" from the top of the Hoffman to the ceiling. Getting a right angle drill in there to remove wood would be very tight. I think the Hoffman would have to be off first and the coupler covered to prevent debris dropping in.

As to removing the coupler, it looks like it has thread sealant in the joint and there are no flat surfaces on the coupler. I think it would be a very difficult removal to undertake.

Sailah

Pipe wrench that will be off in no time

Larry Weingarten

Hello, Another thought would be to see if street 45s might work where street 90s are too tight. Still, Fred's union idea sounds solid!

Yours, Larry

SteamHeat

Paul48

With 5/16" to the face of the joist, a pipe wrench doesn't easily get that off. I'd give it a shot, but wouldn't hesitate going to plan "B". Mine would be to drill a hole through the coupling and nipple. Then use the shaft of a phillips screwdriver. You just need to get it moving.

LionA29

> @Paul48 said:
>You just need to get it moving.
If you don't jump on it, you will be here next heating Season

Paul48

I really wasn't commenting on his speed. Being able to come up with multiple plans adds a level of comfort. Not necessarily ease, but comfort.

LionA29

I got yah @Paul48, just alittle motivation for @SteamHeat

Sailah

A pair of Knipex Cobra pliers would be in my back pocket if the pipe wrench didn't work. Looks like there is room below the joist to grab the short nipple

Paul48

I live in a 90+ year old house. The jobs that wind up being easy are out-numbered by the disasters 5 to 1, easily. You have to learn how to whistle......It sounds stupid, but it helps you keep your sanity.

JUGHNE

Is that old vent screwed into a 3/4" coupling? If so and you would be satisfied with a 1/2" vent port, then any reduction would get a street 90 or 45 a little farther from the FJ.

It would depend upon what would come apart as to a reducing bushing or coupling. FWIW

Sailah

Paul48 said:

I live in a 90+ year old house. The jobs that wind up being easy are out-numbered by the disasters 5 to 1, easily. You have to learn how to whistle......It sounds stupid, but it helps you keep your sanity.

My house is 201 years old I feel ya.

Judicious, and precise, use of heat from various torches helps me with sanity. That and an overwhelming amount of tools of destruction in my arsenal

SteamHeat

Thanks for the info, guys.

Based on everyone's comments, I think I will get a 3/4 union and hold it up in front of the coupler and try to see if there is clearance to install it. If so, I will get the rest of the parts of what Fred was describing, which I think could be called a mini-antler.

Then I will call my pro for my family member and send my pro the pix of the existing setup and ask him if he feels he can get the coupler off and the mini antler on.

The system works right now, but very inefficiently. Boiler runs for 30 minutes before steam is generated and takes another 30 minutes before first radiator is hot. Even after running 3 hours not all radiators get hot.

I think that getting the system to breath better, would be a great first step toward improving its efficiency, but I do not want to cause a failure if the existing parts do not come apart well.

There is another main for the other half of the home, but the vent, which is most likely the same setup, is hidden behind paneling which would have to be removed to get at it.

Paul48

Have you done a radiator survey, and compared it to boiler size?

SteamHeat

The nozzle has been changed so many times in the oil burner, no one really knows what the btu output of the boiler is anymore. But in years-past it provided generous heat and no radiators have been added to the system.

Paul48

When the boiler is serviced, do you stay and watch? Is it serviced annually?

SteamHeat

Home belongs to a family member. Boiler is serviced annually, but how well I could not say as I have not been present during servicing. It has run and provided heat for 67 years, but I suspect at a low efficiency and and an excess cost of wasted oil. Just wanted to see if we could easily and cheaply make an improvement. If it becomes too expensive or complex, they won't want to change anything.

Paul48

There should be combustion analysis left with the boiler. If so, put the numbers on here. The pros can advise, based on the numbers. If not, that's a problem.

JUGHNE

If you put a "sister" on the other side of that floor joist, then a lot of it could be cut out of the way to get wrenches, torch and fittings the working room you need.

For "sisters" I add a strip of 3/4" plywood first, then make a sandwich with the new joist. Lots of structural screws. Then cut up the old one. Doesn't have to be full length....maybe 4-6' long....just depends what's above it. Looks like you could get one end of the sister on the wall sill plate...probably need a shim there.

I have seen tradesmen remove 2/3 of a joist for their work and just walk away......not good.....but they goterdone!

SteamHeat

Paul48, the only info we ever had remotely resembling a combustion analysis was a metal plaque that used to be mounted on the boiler that specified btu output for various nozzles sizes. Years ago, one of the oil company techs removed that plaque telling my family, "Yah don't need dis ting."

What is in the flame head and burner now is just one more of life's mysteries.

I have not had the opportunity yet to measure clearance for fittings. My gut guess is that carving a small dent for mounting the Big Mouth without any other fittings will be the easiest, but I am still going to measure and see what options are available to me.

SteamHeat

JUGHNE, for a small carving or hole in a fj, is a large piece of mending plate bolted in a suitable reinforcement?