How to delay boiler from firing again right away after max op pressure is reached?

MilanD

So, an update after a few days - I've called both the LGB distributor and the company that installed our boiler (Midwest Mechanical) here in Cincinnati, and had Bob from Midwest come by and look at our set-up. We have a train with one of the gas valves being a Honeywell high/low valve V8944N 1053. Bob is great and he never does a things without checking specs and making sure it's safe and double checking with the distributor as to what can be done per specs. He will talk to the distributor about how to do this safely. I am pretty sure this can be done, as said on this thread, and also, per some old threads I found here on LGB 7, in particular, and Bob may have not had a reason to do this before.

As I was explained, by Bob, the only problem with downfiring can be soot due to, if I understand it correctly, lowering of pressure while keeping the burner orifices the same, and then of course, CO, if it's not done right. I am sure he just wants to be sure this is to spec with the boiler, and as LGB literature actually talks about possibility of both 2 stage and low-high-low, I think Bob just wants to be safe (as he should be). It doesn't seem they have done this for anyone else, so - I suppose - we are all learning something new here in Cincinnati.

I will report back once this is done or I know more. With holidays and being off until January, this may not happen until then.

Thanks to everyone here for suggestions and great discussion. I have learned so much in such a short amount of time and have been exposed to so many amazing and knowledgeable people here on the wall. I couldn't have done it without following many discussions here and applying principles to our boiler at work.

Take care and Happy Holidays: Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, or what ever your preferred holiday may be. May you spend it with the loved ones, warm, safe and in peace, and may your new year be filled but only with the best!

Milan

Koan

Thank you @MilanD. I happen to celebrate Christmas , and appreciate the wishes both to me and to others who may celebrate differently. I extend the same wishes to you and your family and all the others here.

MilanD

Hello all following this thread. I didn't forget to report back. I am planning on calling Bob tomorrow and seeing when we can implement the 2 staging.

As all this came from our pursuit of heat loss balancing and increasing the fuel economy, here is a thread started 1/8/17, explaining a brilliant solution to all we've discussed here, and then some. I call it "steam 2.0". A great great new way to bring steam into 21st century. I can see how this may revolutionize the steam heating, especially for large buildings, and perhaps even lead to bringing it back as a heating solution people will again be considering. Nothing silly about it!

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/160675/this-is-a-silly-idea

MilanD

@Hatterasguy - absolutely correct! I noted in one of the posts on that thread, this solution is brilliant for large buildings/owners that can affort to expense it and amortize the investment plus benefit on fuel cost. Marshall also said in his post that this is installed on systems that first have to be in propper mechanical order, or close to it: no failed traps, vents, etc... Read the thread, it's very informative. It's not a miracle band aid, but man, tech behind it with sensors, monitoring and diagnostics, it's brilliant. Similar to what Peter is doing now with his steam traps monitoring at that university he recently posted about.

That said, I don't know what the cost of this is. It may not be most economical for the single family home, or for users under 10,000 sq ft, you are probably right. Nor needed, esp. for someone who knows something about steam (and thank you for assigning me to that category ).

But we can see how many people out there live with a steam boiler and are clueless, through no fault of their own - they rely on pros. (not everyone is into these things, as it is to be understandable, and unfortunately, not all "pros" are pros). Imagine, at some reasonable price, you as a customer install this system, and one day after the install, a steam guy like you calls and says: sir, your system is telling me your pressuretrol is broken, and your trap in your guest room has gone bad and you are taking in more water than you should be. And on the very day it breaks - talk about the up side for everyone, lower service call costs, repair costs, extended service life of the equipment... just wow.

For 34-40% in fuel savings through smart firing, anticipation of heat loss plus rad as thermal storage, to fully integrated networked system that can monitor each rad performance and can pinpoint system trouble in real time - from failed rad vent, trap, main vent or FT trap, depending on the payback in fuel savings alone, never mind cost savings in man hours on servicing and diagnostics, extending the equipment life - from owner's point of view, on multi unit apt bldngs 10,000 sq ft and up, or 10-20k + sq ft office spaces, this is revolutionary and may have only a few years to payback! I am not sure what is the going acceptable break even point for green investments. I do have some idea on costs to install and pipe in a new boiler. Add this into the mix, and even greater savings.

I once, early on, looked at solar and it was some godawful 20 year payback equaling the expected service life of the panel. This thing is brilliant, esp. for large buildings, and I'd guess, payback is under 8 years. Afterall, it's galvanized steel box, a fan, a few sensors, wifi, and a small circuit board.

IMHO, to call this solution a "cozy" is as to call a Tesla vehicle - a riksha.

You are right, I'm 100% gitty! Haha!

To think that getting fuel efficiencies up on large buildings in NYC alone would equate to removing emissions of 70,000 cars, and this just may do it? Wow! My kids' future clean air may just have been dealt a small win.

MilanD

For smaller users, Mark's EcoSteam would be perfect too. Throw in a few of Peter's trap and a few other temp room monitors, this can revolutionise steam implementation.

Of course all of it being priced correctly will be the key for wider use in smaller homes. I think it will eventially happen, sort of like the home alarm industry. Not everyone has it, and today you can get approx 25-30 various wireless monitors (motion, smoke, door/window) onto a moderately sized house installed for under $2k.

ChrisJ

Did the OP ever find a solution?

MilanD

> @ChrisJ said:
> Did the OP ever find a solution?

Yes. We have 2 stage gas train on our LGB 7 (WM calls it low-high-low), so I won't be needng to delay firing. We should be able to low fire after operating pressure is reached (8oz?). Sweet.

With the holidays I didn't get to finish this. I am calling the company today to get this enabled. Both the distributor and the installer are involved.

MilanD

Finally an update...

We had a pin-hole that sprung a leak on our end section of the boiler (7 years old!). Section was replaced this week. For those who didn't follow all this in real time - here's the link to that thread, if you are interested. Vids and pics of inside 7 yo LGB for all to enjoy:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/160931/well-we-got-a-leaky-boiler-lgb-7-update-1-24-17-5-20pm-we-got-heat

Back to 2-staging: today the 2nd vaporstat was wired in. It was as simple as mounting it on the tree and splicing it in between the valve's and panel's MV Terminals. Simple enough. Had I known how to read electrical diagrams, I could have done this way sooner. LGB literature is very vague on this too.

I want to especially thank @Gordo and @Hatterasguy for pointing me in this direction. I also thank you all for an amazing discussion from which I hope we all learned something new. I know I did! Amazing stuff!

For all practical purposes, this setup should really modulate the boiler, def prevent it from cycling, and ultimately, make everything both more comfortable and more economical on the pocketbook. I was encouraged with some other posts on the wall about churches who saved 30% in fuel going 2-stage. What I am not quite sure is why not many people know about this possibility. I hope, with this post, they will and we'll save both our financial resources and our mother earth's natural resources.

Here's the link to 3 videos and 1 pic of the control tree.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/Effk6to2sGmmJBuuUfnwNm83SnxELYidKWXzUgj9TJD

Thank you all!

MilanD

Link to 2 staging thread is here:
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/160968/2-staging-lgb-7-for-those-who-are-looking-for-more-info#latest