Hot upstairs, cold downstairs, and lots of steam relief!

nowhere182

Hi all, I'm hoping that I can get some help before I lose any more sleep! I have a one-pipe steam system, two separate pipes, one per floor. The boiler is located in the basement, on the same side of the house as the majority of the radiators. On the first floor, there are 4 radiators - living room, dining room, basement, and small rear entryway. The dining room radiator is in the same room at the thermostat. It's a smaller house. The following valves are currently on the first floor:
Dining room - Gorton 4
Living room - Gorton 6
Bathroom - Jacobus 5 (half size radiator)
Rear entryway - not sure (tightly built in, half size radiator)
The second floor has three bedrooms, with the bathroom radiator being half the size of the others. Valves:
Bedroom 1 (Master) - Gorton C
Bedroom 2 - Jacobus 6
Bedroom 3 - Jacobus 6
Bathroom - Gorton D
Currently, the first floor is freezing cold when the upstairs is warm. There's also excessive opening of the valves in the master bedroom and living room. Both open for over 15-20 minutes at a clip. I've changed the main valves to some generic air main in the last month. No change. The upstairs used to be cold, now it's hot, and I've changed the valves around so I can't find the right equilibrium! I've had the boiler serviced last year, it was cleaned, and it's running at a good low pressure. Please help me!!! And thanks so much in advance!

BobC

Has the thermostat been changed recently?

Are you sure the vents on the first floor are working?

How long are the steam mains in the cellar?

Does each floor have it's own main? How about a sketch showing what radiators are fed from which main.

What kind of main vent was there before you changed them? Show us a picture of the generic main vent.

Bob

nowhere182

Hi, and thanks for responding. Thermostat is 10 years old. Vents are definitely working on all floors. Steam mains are only about 15-20 feet in the cellar. The mains were different - one was a Dole 1933 and the other one didn't have any markings. Thanks so much!

Fred

You may need to first make sure you have adequate venting on EACH main, in the basement. Tell us the length and diameter of each main and we can determine how much venting should be there. After that is done, you need to put some smaller vents on the upstairs radiators. Maybe something adjustable like the Vent-rites of Hoffman 1A's. They will help slow those rads down and help the first floor heat up. What pressure is the boiler running? It needs to be as low as possible. .5 PSI Cut-in and "1" Differential for a Cut-out pressure of 1.5PSI. Also make sure the pigtail (looped pipe) under the Pressuretrol is clean. If it is plugged it will let pressure build, even though the Pressuretrol may be set correctly.

adambnyc

Do the rads on the first floor get hot? Is the thermostat located on the first floor?

The thermostat will keep the boiler firing until it's satisfied.

If the first floor rads aren't getting hot, probably a venting/balancing issue.

New England SteamWorks

Change those main vents first, Makes all the difference in the world. Then we can fool around with the radiator vents. You need Big Mouths. 2 at least, maybe 4.

KC_Jones

You say the rad vents are working, but the title of this post and your indication of them "opening for 15-20 minutes at a clip" indicates otherwise. The vents are to release air. If you get any steam they are either bad or the pressure is too high or both. Please clarify how they are working.

nowhere182

Okay, let's see how many of these I can answer:
Pigtail is clean, I took it apart last year, and drain the system weekly. Radiators on the first floor do get hot, but only after the second floor is already warm. Correct, thermostat is on 1st floor. Would the Big Mouth vents make a big difference? One on each main? The vents that open stay open - it's steam that comes out. The one on the master bedroom is most guilty of this. It's new - I installed 6 weeks ago. Thanks so much again for the help!

adambnyc

System is unbalanced. Varivents might work out well for you. No vent should have steam coming out of it. They are supposed to shut closed when steam hits them.

Very possible you have some bad vents. Those need replacing

KC_Jones

Also possible the pressure is way too high if you have new vents failed already. What is the pressure setting on the pressuretrol? Do you have a low pressure gauge to verify its working correctly?
When you say drain the system weekly what exactly do you mean? You really should only be draining (a small amount) if you have a float type LWCO. If you have a probe type you don't really have a reason to take any water out.

nowhere182

I have a pressure gauge, pressure doesn't go above 1. I drain only about 2 cups out of the system weekly. Are varivents a good choice, or should I go Gorton? Which number/letter? Thanks again!

adambnyc

http://www.hvacrsupplynow.com/VENT-RITE-1-STEAM-AIR-VALVES-ADJUSTABLE_p_1787.html

Best price I've seen them at. These let me balance my system easily.

KC_Jones

nowhere182 said:

I drain only about 2 cups out of the system weekly.

Why?

Fred

A pigtail can clog in a year. It needs to be checked. The question about how effective the Bigmouths are can't be answered until you tell us the length and diameter of each main. If they are way under vented, the bigmouth will make a huge difference. If they are properly vented then their won't be much difference. Clearly those Rad vents that are blowing steam need to be replaced. As has been said, make sure the mains are properly vented before trying to balance the rads. I assume when you say you drain a couple cups of water, that you have a MM #67 or some other float type LWCO that you blow down weekly?

nowhere182

I will definitely clean out the pigtail this weekend. I'm not sure what kind of cutoff I have, I just drain once a week to clean the dirt out of the system. As far as the main, it is 2", and splits after about 8 ft from the boiler. One branch runs about 8 ft, then up; the other branch runs into the ceiling, and goes for longer before heading up, maybe 10-15 ft? Again, many thanks all!

MilanD

For venting mains, esp. if more than one main, you want to get it venting as close as possible to what it would be if there wasn't a vent there, but with the vent. You also want to get all the mains to vent at the equal rate -- both get hot at the end of the run at the same time. @Fred mentioned being undervented. It means the main vent may be too small or is not working at all, on the loop feeding the downstairs rads.

It makes sense that the upstairs heats before downstairs if the balance is off, as the pipes going there will be, usually, larger in diameter than those feeding the downstairs rads. (Old timers knew how to do this right.) Larger pipes provide less resistance for steam flow so it will go there first, esp, if the downstairs loop is not venting properly, in addition to having inoperable radiator vents on the 1st floor.

So, it's quite possible you have a combination of inoperable vents (main and rad on the 1st floor, and/or some on 2nd floor) which will create a condition for pushing steam to 2nd floor first, and also for the high pressure, if your pressuretrol is cranked way up (with the 'right only' screwdriver by a less-than-knowledgeable 'pro' who in the years past attempted to solve the problem by raising the pressure)... Always remember that the less the pressure you can get the system to run on, the better.

So, first check your pressuretrol and make sure it's on the lowest setting you can get (as mentioned above) 0.5 psi with the lowest '1' differential. If you have the budget for a 16oz vaporstat, even better - this won't let you run anything over 1 psi. Then, replace main vents. I'd start with the downstairs loop (if that one is not heating right now). Big mouth sounds good (or Hoffman 75, Gordon 2 - they all have different venting rates and should be improvement on what your current situation is...). Some can be found on Amazon, others through various local or online suppliers like supplyhouse dot com. Many people here on the board love the big mouth vents.

Then, check your rad vents on the 1st floor and 2nd floor. They need to be operational (not spitting steam - and you'll see if they are once you dial-down the pressure on the pressuretrol). To help balance the system, the vents also need to be sized by venting speeds - fastest ones (biggest orifice) being at the furthest point from the boiler, and reducing as you go closer and closer to the boiler. This is where 'balancing' becomes an art form.

As to which rad vents to use: one of the other threads mentioned the following vent being good as they can be dialed up or down to help balance the air elimination (http://www.hvacrsupplynow.com/VENT-RITE-1-STEAM-AIR-VALVES-ADJUSTABLE_p_1787.html). I personally use different ones, but can see how these would be great. I use 4 Honeywell thermostatic vents with temp actuators on the 4 rads closest to the boiler (they get the hottest first and are the largest - thermostatic vent shuts them off when the temp in the room reaches 70), and then, I switch between Hoffman 40s and Maid-o-Mists. Maid-o-Mist can also be adjusted by using different orifices that come with it. In my experience however, some of Made-o-mists (not all but some) come kind of 'whistly' when air is evacuating the system (high whistle-like pitch), so this may not be what you want in your bedrooms. Which brings you back to the Vent Rite from the link above.

Finally, with steam systems, you want to do a weekly 'blow-down' of the boiler. When the boiler is hot (be careful on this so you don't burn your self), you open the low and high drain on your boiler into a bucket or a near-by drain if it's piped that way. You may have only one low boiler drain, then do that one. If you have a float-type feeder switch (some version of this http://mcdonnellmiller.com/water-feeders/series-5151-2-mechanical-water-feederslow-water-cut-offs/), the drain coming off of it will keep the gunk from collecting in that housing and needs to be blown down regularly.

How much water you 'blow down' depends: do it as long as the water coming out is dark and murky. When it turns slightly clearer, stop. Now, if you haven't been doing this for a while, or haven't been blowing down enough, you will have to time these blow-downs over the next few days/weeks, as not to introduce fresh make-up water to the hot cast iron boiler which can be dangerous as it can blow the boiler and cause serious injury or kill you, or crack your boiler and kill it. So, do a little bit at a time, daily, and be patient, and for safety, you can shut-off the valve for make up water, just to make sure. When you are done for the day, turn the make-up water back on. After a few days, and once you get to somewhat cleaner water coming out of the boiler, you can go back to weekly blow-downs.

Once you are done with the heating season, try finding a good mechanical company to come out and service the boiler it self: remove the float, low water cut-off, clean the sight glass, clean the burner, and maybe clean the inside of the boiler (there is video on this site - search 'cleaning steam boiler). Some people, depending on the water quality, use Steammaster tablet or two (depending on the size of boiler) to help keep the ph balanced and scale/oxygen down. Search on this site for various boiler cleaning threads - there are quite a few.

Finally, when you are done for the season, and all is clean and serviced, make sure all the new water that's in the boiler cooks one more time, to remove the oxygen which will rust the system much more quickly if fresh water is left in the boiler for the summer. It's also good practice to raise your boiler water level an inch or two before firing it one last time, and then leaving the boiler for the summer with the water line 1-2 inches higher than operating level. As rust in the boiler forms on the water surface, changing where that is from year to year, substantially extends the life of your boiler. One year 2 inches, next 3, next 4, than 1 inch below, etc... One old article here by @Dan Holohan talks about old-timers draining the boiler and leaving it dry for the summer. This may be done too, I suppose, as long as you remember to fill it back in before the heating season.

Best is to follow your manufacturer's recommendation. Most, if not all nowadays, recommend leaving the water in. As it's been cooked and deprived of oxygen, it will actually protect the cast iron that's below the water line.

Good luck!

nowhere182

This is such an amazing comment - thank you. This information is truly helpful. I have changed some of the vents to try and balance out the system, and I think it has worked a little, but I am still having a hard time with the vent in the master bedroom. I changed it from a C to 6, and it still is the only vent on the second floor to blow off and open and sputter during the night. Any suggestions on this? All the other vents on the second floor are 6's. Thanks so much in advance!

Fred

Is that a large radiator? If it is, steam may not be heating the entire radiator and getting to that vent to close it. That can be normal, if the boiler doesn't run long enough to heat it completely.
Also, are you sure the boiler is running when you hear noises from that vent? Sometimes, after the boiler shuts down, a vent can open (like it should) and that vent can suck air back into the system. That too is normal.

nowhere182

Hi, thanks for the fast response. It's a medium size radiator, the same size as 3 of the 4 on the second floor. All the ones on the second floor get hear at about the same time, but this one sounds like it's releasing pressure for over 10 minutes during the night. I thought that the vent was too big, so I just changed it, and it's still happening. Any ideas on how to stop it?

Fred

What size vent do you have on it? Is this radiator furthest from the boiler? If it is, it has more air to push out of the supply piping and It may be that you need a little larger vent on it .

nowhere182

It was a C, then I changed it to a 6 like the rest of the floor. Would a D work?

Fred

Is this radiator the furthest from the boiler? Did you add the suggested vents to the mains? You changed from the "c" to the "6" because it was venting a lot of air for an extended period of time. You can try a "D" but I'm still wondering what may be different on this rad from the others. Longer supply pipe run-out? Last pipe run-out on the main? Main vents still too small?