Recent installs

STEAM DOCTOR

Williamson gsa150,75,125

EzzyT

Are these your installs or someone else's?

STEAM DOCTOR

Mine. Feel free to critique

Danny Scully

What do you think the advantages are to piping the equalizer into the system side, rather than the boiler side? Also, purely an aesthetic criticism, but I think you could have accomplished piping these headers with a lot less pitch, and a few less fittings in the process.

EzzyT

All 3 headers have way to much pitch to them.
The skim port valve should be full sized on the horizontal
The headers could been piped where you didnt need to use as many 45 of sets.
The last install the hardford loop is in the wrong location more like lack of one.
The 2nd install, you couldnt pipe the wet return to the back end of the return side of the boiler?
How about cleaning up the electrical conduit?

STEAM DOCTOR

- The typical Hartford loop configuration, allows for steam to potentially travel across the loop and up the equalizer. Te result will be steam hitting the header from both sides. Separating the loop and the equalizer eliminates this possibility. Steam bubbles are unlikely to travel down a column of water. You do lose a few inches of protection this way but its minimal.

-The header is a steam/water separator and a drain pipe. In my mind, more pitch equals better separation and better draining back to boiler. The aesthetics will always take a hit and there will always be the need for 45's and the like to hook up with the mains. Function over form. All of these systems are dead quite with minimal water movement in the glass. And that's without skimming.

-My newest skimming method is to hook up a water transfer pump to the skim port and to adjust the flow rate to match the pump out rate. Goes much faster then traditional method(which I have unhappily done a million and one times) and seems to equally, if not more effective. Book is still out on this one.

-Second install was very tight on both sides of boiler. Was much easier to come around.

-Electrical conduit cleanup and such get done when I come back to skim. Especially on installs in middle of heating season.

-All critique is fully welcome. I am all ears

RomanGK_26986764589

Are those just pictures or everything and even the pressuretroll looks crooked? I can't argue regarding the efficiency but aesthetics definitely took a hit with this one. But if it functions well then a customer will be very happy they got steam!

STEAM DOCTOR

@RomanGK_26986764589 . The pictures may be crooked. The boiler and controls are all level. The headers are the only things that are crooked (by design).

STEAM DOCTOR

@EzzyT. Not to disagree but I would think that the more fittings, the better. The steam can negotiate the twists and turns better then the water. Result should be better separation. I have had the urge for years, to make "corkscrew" risers. Would think that would do a whale of a job drying out the steam.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Looks like someone didn't like to cut and thread JMHO

STEAM DOCTOR

@EBEBRATT-Ed. Ouch. This was a calculated design.

Neild5

Not a pro, I understand the importance of pitch on the plumbing but what does pitch help on the electrical?

STEAM DOCTOR

As stated above, the electrical and all non essentials, get cleaned up when I return to skim.

STEAM DOCTOR

1. Do the many steam wise men (from whom I have cleaned much wisdom over the years) think that extra header pitch increases the function of the header, decreases the function of the header or has insignificant role in the function of the header?
2. Do the many SWM agree with my above stated theory on the benefit of piping the Hartford loop the way that I did?
All insights and critiques are fully welcome.

Abracadabra

STEAM DOCTOR said:

1. Do the many steam wise men (from whom I have cleaned much wisdom over the years) think that extra header pitch increases the function of the header, decreases the function of the header or has insignificant role in the function of the header?

2. Do the many SWM agree with my above stated theory on the benefit of piping the Hartford loop the way that I did?

All insights and critiques are fully welcome.

#1 - No additional benefit to having that much pitch on the header. Once the water has dropped out of the steam to the bottom of the header, it's not going to magically get mixed up with the steam again that's now sitting at the top of the header. There is no additional energy being given to the water in the header so it won't become steam again.

#2 - Piping the equalizer on the system side of the return can have the inadvertent affect of negating the benefit of the hartford loop. I have to think about it more. It just seems like more piping and work for no benefit. Also your stated benefit of avoiding steam traveling from the return up to the header doesn't jive with me. There should be no steam in a wet return.

#3 - I also agree with @EzzyT about the full sized skim port. I also make judicious use of full-sized tee's with plugs and/or nipples&caps everywhere instead of elbows. Makes cleaning out stuff a lot easier.

#4 - Not a fan of using 45s. If you truly believe in creating a corkscrew to dry out steam, you'd use 90s, instead of a 45s. 45s form a "smoother" path than 90s. There's one exception to this. I love seeing a wye and 45 on the hartford loop instead of a close nipple. It just seems to be more "right" and more calculated and professional. I admit I've never done it that way though.

#5 - Also, more pitch is not always better. Just ask anyone that's piped sewers and drains.

JMHO. I also do not claim to be a "Steam Wise Man". Just a student of the Deadmen. I don't think I'll ever be a professor.

Steamhead

There are times when the header just wants to be a certain way, and as long as it pitches in the right direction, it's fine. Here's an example:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/159317/this-weeks-steamer

I've never piped a Hartford Loop that way though.

But I might suggest that you wait to take your pics until everything's finalized. Case in point: last winter we replaced a steamer and had to get it running before a major cold front came through. So we connected the gas and electricity in a temporary, but safe, manner. The following week we went back and cleaned everything up. I don't think we took pics of that job, but if we did, we would have waited until those permanent connections were done.

EBEBRATT-Ed

That's not a "Hartford Loop" in my opinion. The Hartford loop is supposed to keep water from backing out of the boiler...steam pressure on top ...water pressure from the return on the bottom...side outlet into boiler that's what keeps the water from backing out not the loop

STEAM DOCTOR

The pressure in the equalizer will keep the water from backing out of the boiler. There is no inherent reason (correct me if I'm wrong) for the loop and the equalizer to be connected. The equalizer will keep water from backing out even if there is no loop at all. If I remember correctly (don't have my LAOSH in front of me) the equalizer came into existence before the loop.

Fred

STEAM DOCTOR said:

The pressure in the equalizer will keep the water from backing out of the boiler. There is no inherent reason (correct me if I'm wrong) for the loop and the equalizer to be connected. The equalizer will keep water from backing out even if there is no loop at all. If I remember correctly (don't have my LAOSH in front of me) the equalizer came into existence before the loop.

@STEAM DOCTOR , the Hartford loop was designed to prevent a leak in a wet return from emptying out the boiler and consequently keep the boiler from dry firing. The reason the Hartford loop is connected to the equalizer is so the Hartford loop can connect at a higher location (still below the water line) than the bottom of the boiler where the equalizer connects and prevents water from backing out of the boiler.
I don't mean to be unkind but I have to say I'm not a fan of those installations. Way too much pitch on the headers, questionable Hartford loop, so many 45's and nipples. It may work but I suspect it could be a lot more esthetically pleasing for the HO since they are paying for the job and will live with it for years to come and they (and any other service tech) should be able to look at the install and the Installation manual and see some semblance of what they have. I don't even know how you'd take advantage of both riser tappings. If you could get it on those headers, one would be so much shorter that the other. How will that impact the header function/steam flow?

Fred

STEAM DOCTOR said:

The pressure in the equalizer will keep the water from backing out of the boiler. There is no inherent reason (correct me if I'm wrong) for the loop and the equalizer to be connected. The equalizer will keep water from backing out even if there is no loop at all. If I remember correctly (don't have my LAOSH in front of me) the equalizer came into existence before the loop.

@STEAM DOCTOR , the Hartford loop was designed to prevent a leak in a wet return from emptying out the boiler and consequently keep the boiler from dry firing. The reason the Hartford loop is connected to the equalizer is so the Hartford loop can connect at a higher location (still below the water line) than the bottom of the boiler where the equalizer connects and prevents water from backing out of the boiler.
I don't mean to be unkind but I have to say I'm not a fan of those installations. Way too much pitch on the heards, questionable Hartford loop, so many 45's and nipples. More joints for potential leaks. It may work but I suspect it could be a lot more esthetically pleasing for the HO since they are paying for the job and will live with it for years to come and they (and any other service tech) should be able to look at the install and the Installation manual and see some semblance of what they have. I don't even know how you'd take advantage of both riser tappings. If you could get it on those headers, one would be so much shorter that the other. How will that impact the header function/steam flow?

Henry

We do installs of Smith cast iron boiler for others, like last week. One needs to get a torque wrench and follow the instructions. I always have the contractor do an equaliser sizes by Smith with a Hartford loop and NOT pump into the bottom of the boiler. We have replaced some sections on boilers pumped into the bottom and not the equaliser.

STEAM DOCTOR

@Fred. Agree 100 % on the function of the loop. The equalizer has a different function. The primary function of the equalizer(besides for being a drain pipe) is too prevent the pressure in the boiler from blowing water out into the return(high pressure goes too low pressure..always). The equalizer equalizes the pressure on the boiler side of the return tapping(i.e. inside the boiler) and the outside side of the return tapping. That equalizer will accomplish that goal(and the drain goal) whether it is on the boiler side of the loop, the system side of the loop, or directly connected to the loop.

Take a look at page 65 in Lost Art. Look at the right hand diagram. Without a water seal between the equalizer and the dry return, steam bubbles(which form at the bottom) will go sideways out nipple, up the equalizer and into the dry return. BAD. Just think about for a bit. Same exact thing can happen on every installation. Just instead of going up the equalizer and into the dry return, steam will go up the equalizer and into the back end of the header. The same exact steam bubbles will sideways through the nipple, up the equalizer and into the back end of the header. We definitely do not want any steam to approach the header from the outlet side. The solution to this problem is simple. Make a water seal between the header and the equalizer. You have the full function of the loop,full function of the equalizer and protection from stray steam bubbles.

I will be the first to admit that the problem of steam entering the back of the header cant be the worlds worst problem(or anywhere close). There are a million and one high quality installations (including by yours truly) that have the equalizer connected directly to the loop and they function just fine. I am just contending that steam will move better through the header if its not contending with steam bubbles entering through the back end.

As usual, I am all ears and eager to learn.

Fred

@STEAM DOCTOR you aren't going to get steam or bubbles out of the back end of the header from the equalizer. Think about a pot of boiling water. The bubbles rise to the top, they burst and the steam/energy is released. An equalizer is connected to the bottom of the boiler. All water. Bubbles aren't trapped down there, they rise to the surface of the water, burst and the steam enters the risers, which are above the surface of the boiler water to the header and out through the system. If, by chance you were to install that equalizer into a boiler tapping above the water line, then you'd get the effect you speak of.

STEAM DOCTOR

Please look at page 65 of Lost Art. According to Mr. Holohan, steam bubbles will rise up the equalizer. Look at the diagrams. Please explain why steam will rise into the dry return, will rise into the equalizer and necessitate the need for a short nipple but wont rise into the header.

Fred

@STEAM DOCTOR Basically because any steam rising out of the equalizer will immediately collapse when it contacts the cooler condensate returning through the Hartford loop. It never has a chance to rise into the header. Read the entire page. A dry return needs to be dropped below the close nipple on the Hartford loop to create a water seal, preventing steam from entering the dry return and equalizing the pressure in the dry return as well.