Need some help - New homeowner very confused

NickB2005

Hey all, first let me preface this by saying I live right outside of Boston and just bought a new home with my wife. The house was built in 1969 and has the original HydroTherm boiler that says 100kBTU's. I have a 2011 regular water heater that is probably on it's way out. The last house I owned had a Weil Mclean boiler and a Rheem On-Demand Tankless hot water setup and I never had any issues in 3 years with either of those. I am a young guy, 29 years old don't know much about boilers/water heaters, but I wanted to take advantage of the Mass Save program where I am and my boiler qualifies for $3,000 back. I've had 8 companies come out and quote the job, but no one is consistent in what they say some say go boiler/indirect, some say go combi unit, my contractor told me to go HydroAir. So, to say the least I am very confused on which way to go. I wanted to lay out all the options I was quoted along with pricing and maybe one of you experts can help me make heads or tails with it. A bit about the house, it's about 2100 square feet, 1.5 baths however we're putting on an addition and adding 500 square feet and a master bath bringing us to 2.5 and about 2600 square feet and 4 bedrooms. The type of house is a split-level if that helps as well.

This is how I have it setup - Boiler Water Heater UpFront Cost After Rebates

Bosch Greenstar 131 MegaStor Indirect Water Heater

Rinnai (M#E110cn) N/A - Combi Unit

Bosch Greenstar Combi 151 N/A - Combi Unit

Buderus GB142/30, gas fired boiler 83K BTU’s Navian On Demand gas water heater

Navien Combi Unit N/A - Combi Unit

Model TBD (Didn't say) 95% Efficient Model TBD - Indirect Water Heater

KC_Jones

We don't discuss pricing on here, you should remove all pricing information from your post.

Jamie Hall

Well... we don't do pricing here; it just isn't fair to anyone.

OK. That aside. Hot water heat at the moment. I assume from your comments that you haven't lived there through a winter yet; it might not be a bad idea to do so, to see how the existing system works (or not). However, if you are in a hurry...

There are two things you should do, or have done, before you worry about what boiler to buy (and I might say that the boiler you have now may, indeed, be a candidate for replacement!). The first, the very very first thing, is to determine what the actual heat loss for the house -- with the addition -- is on the design day (that's the coldest day you expect in your area). Without that number, sizing the boiler can't be done correctly. An undersized boiler (which would be very unlikely; most contractors if they don't do a heat loss will either replace what's there, size for size, or just put in whatever is on the truck that day) just won't keep you warm. An oversized boiler won't run as efficiently. You need to get the sizing right.

Then the second thing is to look at what the existing radiator or baseboard setup is, and what you propose in the new addition, and see if that is sized more or less correctly. Here oversized isn't really a problem, but undersized is.

Now... having done that, you can begin to think about what the best setup will be for your situation. All the setups you have mentioned are perfectly good ways to go -- although I would probably pick the Buderus myself, as they seem to be well made units. There are further options, however. Are you thinking about air conditioning at all? If so, you might want to look into minisplit units which provide air conditioning and heat in the shoulder seasons.

Just a few thoughts...

NickB2005

Sorry about the pricing! Thank you for taking it away.

So, I've also had all of these companies quote me central air as well and they've all ranged between Trane, Lexicon, and Carrier, but that isn't as much of a necessity as the boiler is. I have to do something before December in order to get the $3,000 rebate plus be able to do financing with 0% APR for 7 years through the program. Everyone has told me my current boiler is running at about a 55-60% efficiency.

Space isn't an issue. The room where everything is in is just a laundry room with a lot of space, but for some reason the combi units really seem to draw me to it, but the models from Navien and Rinnai I haven't been able to find good stuff on and the Bosch Greenstar 151 is way too pricey for me.

I just don't want to install a combi unit and then 7 years down the road have issues and then I am having people tell me if I install a combi unit I need to have someone come out every year and do a once over or they'll bust in about 2-3 years and be worthless.

It would of been really easy if every single company was just like a combi unit makes the most sense here. However, I was actually leaning towards the Bosch GreenStar 131 with the MegaStor indirect water heater.

Ironman

Forget the combi. They're might be ok for a very small domestic load or a small house.

A good mod/con and an indirect is the way to go. Of the ones you've listed, I'd go with the Buderus gb142. Not my first boiler choice, but a decent one that's easy to clean. I've installed several.

As Jamie said, the heat loss calc is critical. You can do one yourself if you go to SlantFin and download their app.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: the installer! Really do you homework here: he's 98% of the equation. If he wants to over-size the boiler or won't do a heat loss calc., then get rid of him and look for another. Try the contractor locator on site.

What type of emitters do you have?

NickB2005

Thanks for the comments. I mean I've looked up all of these installers as they need to be part of an approved list for this Mass Save program.

When you say what type of emitters do you have...what does that mean? Sorry

Ironman

NickB2005 said:

Thanks for the comments. I mean I've looked up all of these installers as they need to be part of an approved list for this Mass Save program.

When you say what type of emitters do you have...what does that mean? Sorry

Being part of a rebate program just means they're licensed and have signed up for the the program. I doesn't mean that they are COMPETENT hydronic people.

Emitters: heat emitters, radiators, etc.

KC_Jones

The comment about the installers is because they aren't all equal. Just because they are in business doesn't mean they know what they are doing on the heating system. We see garbage all the time around here and it's kind of sad. That being said it's extremely difficult to vet out a contractor. One of the basics is asking about sizing as the only proper way to do it is with a heat loss calculation. Any rules of thumb or I have been doing this for X years should typically be dismissed automatically.

Emitters are the things that give you heat. Radiant floor, baseboard, cast iron radiators?

Jamie Hall

Methnks that you are in too much of a hurry, and being stampeded by the glitter of the rebate program (and how much per year is that worth over the life of the installation if it's done right?) and the gleam of a low interest rate.

Good luck. Bluntly, if you don't take your time and do it right the first time, you are going to need it.

Canucker

Is the low interest rate financing actually saving any money? I ask because I financed a vehicle through a dealer at "0% interest" many years ago. The financed price was $6000 higher than the cash price I would have received had I got a loan from the bank to buy it instead. I would have paid less even with interest on the full term from the bank

Fred

@NickB2005 These rebate/incentive programs have been on-going for a number of years and will likely continue for several more. You are looking at the 2016 rebate program. There will be one for 2017. Take your time and find the right contractor who will guide you to the right heating/HW solution.

Zman

First off, listen to Jamie and get a heat loss done.

After that you are going to have to sort out which brand and type you are comfortable with.

Personally, I don't think demand heaters are worth the added maintenance. Opinions will vary.
A combi system makes sense for some applications but not all. after you get a heat loss and you evaluate your water needs, you will know if it is for you.
I have had horrible experience with the Bosch and Buderus boilers heat exchangers clogging and would not install either of those brands even if the boiler was free (maybe a local issue).

I would look into a HE boiler with a firetube heat exchanger coupled with an indirect. There is no way your heat loss is more than 70K BTU so I would question folks suggesting boilers larger than that.

NickB2005

Ironman said:

NickB2005 said:

Thanks for the comments. I mean I've looked up all of these installers as they need to be part of an approved list for this Mass Save program.

When you say what type of emitters do you have...what does that mean? Sorry

Being part of a rebate program just means they're licensed and have signed up for the the program. I doesn't mean that they are COMPETENT hydronic people.

Emitters: heat emitters, radiators, etc.

Ah ok, well everyone that has come has measured the amount of baseboard that there is. With it being a split you walk in to the front door and there is (2) 3 foot baseboards right there. You walk up the stairs and you got the main level. One long one in the living room, one in the dining room, and there was one in the kitchen, but due to redoing the kitchen going to do a toe kick vent. Then there is a bathroom and 3 bedrooms all with baseboard up there. Downstairs you got the laundry room where all this is located and no baseboard. A half bath with baseboard and 3 other rooms where there is baseboard.

NickB2005

Hatterasguy said:

NickB2005 said:

However, I was actually leaning towards the Bosch GreenStar 131 with the MegaStor indirect water heater.

You can't go wrong with the Bosch and an indirect. It's a fine combination. Just be sure the contractor is certified to work on on the Bosch.

HOWEVER, you WILL go wrong with the 131. This would be the biggest mistake of your life.

Your house has a heatloss of not more than 60K BTUH. If you were to check it properly, it might even be less, depending on the insulation and the air leakage.

The boiler needs to be as closely matched to the heatloss as possible. If you buy the 131, its roughly twice the size of your heatloss. This means the boiler is going to cycle endlessly in warmer weather.

Your boiler is almost certainly going to be the Greenstar 79. However, this can only be confirmed after a heatloss calculation is done and you will observe that NONE of the contractors want to do it.

Furthermore, you will find that most of the contractors will not agree that a Greenstar 79 will heat your house. That's because they are all clueless as to what size boiler to install.

We already know that your existing boiler (100K) is too large for your house because it probably did not run 100% of the time on the coldest day of the year. We also know that the Hydrotherm probably had an output of 80K BTUH.

So, this reinforces the need to confirm a proper heatloss and further confirm that the Greenstar 79 would be the boiler of choice.

DO NOT let the contractors determine the boiler size. They will oversize it every single time.

@ironman correctly states that the installer is the most important aspect of the install. Unfortunately, you are ill prepared to vet these contractors so that advice is not useful to you.

The proper contractor will be the one that agrees to do a proper heatloss and size the boiler to the heatloss without adding any "padding" because they don't trust their own calculations. When you find this fellow and he agrees on the 79 , hire him.

You are fortunate to be in the Boston area. There are two contractors that can do a proper heatloss with a professional installation without question:

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/wilson-services-inc


https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/bob-gagnon-plumbing-and-heating

Thank you for this! I am going to reach out to both of those people to have them come by and check it out. Do you know them or know their work? Just wanted to see if that was why you recommended them.

NickB2005

Fred said:

@NickB2005 These rebate/incentive programs have been on-going for a number of years and will likely continue for several more. You are looking at the 2016 rebate program. There will be one for 2017. Take your time and find the right contractor who will guide you to the right heating/HW solution.

I agree with you 100% and I am sure it'll be around for 2017 but maybe with more hoops to jump through.

I mean everyone that has come in has said it is a very straight forward job. All vent outside instead of through the chimney. It's really just model/type that varies from contractor to contractor.

KC_Jones

The boiler is not sized by how much baseboard you have, if none of them have spoken about doing an actual building heat loss then none of them are planning on sizing it correctly as Hat said. This is VERY important, if it's too big it will eat up all those rebates in fuel costs.

I am sure they will say it's easy doing things incorrectly is always easy.

delta T

Stay away from combi's. The required input btu input for your DHW will make the boiler far to large for your house's heat loss. I will second that a good 95%+ fire tube modcon (Lochinvar, Triangle Tube, Viesmann are a few trusted brands, Lochinvar being my personal first pick) with an indirect is a very nice system that if installed correctly and sized correctly will work great for many years.

That being said, on a baseboard system, it is unlikely that you will get the full benefit of a high efficiency condensing boiler. It will still be more efficient than a cast iron boiler, but it will not be running at 97% unless you have way more baseboard than you really need for the house. In reality, on a cold winter's day, a modcon will most likely run around 87%. This is determined by the temperature of the return water coming back into the boiler and is something a good designer will take into account.

As everyone before said, a heat loss MUST be done to determine the boiler's size. This is the FIRST step and it will involve LOTS of measuring. I would guess that a typical heat loss, between measuring and then running the numbers takes me between two and three hours if I'm working quickly. This is why people don't want to do them. If you find a contractor who will do the heat loss, expect it to be something they charge for.

There is a trade off between the cost of maintenance and the efficiency of any given boiler. Be prepared to spend more on maintenance for a modcon, as compared to cast iron. Cast iron will most likely last longer than the mod con, and does still need maintenance, though on most systems I maintain, two years between tuneups seems to be fine for CI, but definitely every year for modcons. A good cast iron boiler will be around 82% or maybe 84% efficient.

Your current boiler is probably 75%-80% efficient, I have yet to see one that is actually less than 70% combustion efficiency. It is something a lot of people say to sell more boilers.

Ironman

Don't be fooled by 0% financing; they charge the contractor a fat sum for providing it and he has to add that back into what he charges for the job.

Paul48

It would be a trip for Wilson Services. He's north of Springfield, but if he'll travel, you won't be disappointed.

GW

All, the zero % financing is a state run program, it's not something the contractor is offering.

Nick, none of those options give me the warm fuzzies.

Here's a job we finished today, this customer specifically asked for Viessmann. It's rare that a home owner asks for a specific brand.

Indirect water heaters are very popular with the heating guy community. The HVAC guys will get funky with their bigger systems and oversized heating plants.

Get some more quotes

Gary

GW

I'm two hours away, I'd post my price but that's unruly

Gary

Paul48

Maybe @kcopp ? I don't know if he works Mass though.

kcopp

Paul48 said:

Maybe @kcopp ? I don't know if he works Mass though.

I'm in Seacoast NH and am not Lic in Mass. Are you in Essex County?

Jamie Hall

I know @Charlie from wmass sometimes works in that area -- but it's just as long a haul for him as it is for @GW .

Charlie from wmass

Guess I am the only one with dual tanks on his truck. Lol If it needs done before December I would need to pass. If you can wait I can make time to give a quote as I am out east fairly regularly.

NickB2005

I am in Burlington, MA. I mean no one mentioned a heat loss, but I did not ask them obviously either. I spoke to Bob last night as he is only about 10-15 mins away from me. He asked me a few questions, but also mentioned he does the heat loss after a job is secured. I am wondering if these other folks are the same?

I would definitely like Bob to check it out and quote something, but due to renovating my kitchen, bathrooms, electrical, plumbing, I really needed/wanted to throw the boiler/water heater on the MA state program of the financing just to free up some cash for other work. Plus, I figure this is probably the best time to get central air installed if I could swing it, but Mass Save only gives you 25k that can be through the program and 10k can only be done for Central Air, but the heating can be any amount. The only other stuff you could throw on the program is windows that I would be tempted to use.

You guys are all TRULY AMAZING I am really lucky I found this website because being young and naive I would've probably just picked whatever model got the best ratings and made the most sense price wise.

Charlie from wmass

Bob will treat you well and does excellent work.

NickB2005

Charlie from wmass said:

Bob will treat you well and does excellent work.

Great! Thank you

Brewbeer

@NickB2005 If you are good with a tape measure, the heat loss calculation is not that difficult to do yourself.

NickB2005

Brewbeer said:

@NickB2005 If you are good with a tape measure, the heat loss calculation is not that difficult to do yourself.

What do you typically do? I am good with a tape measure.

Brewbeer

NickB2005 said:

What do you typically do? I am good with a tape measure.

If you can put this info in a spreadsheet, you are most of the way to getting a really good heat loss calc. See attached.

NickB2005

So, I went back to each company and asked about the heat loss and these are responses I got...

I was talking to John regarding your questions on heat load for home. As part of my cooling load calculations I also completed a heat loss and came out with 80,243 for heating including the potential master bedroom. There are a couple of ways to calculate a properly sized boiler, what John did was measure the radiation in your home, which came out slightly higher with the potential master bedroom. This is important since you want to use a boiler that will heat the existing radiation as well. The boiler John chose is, in my opinion, properly sized for your home.

Another one....

Yes, I did the heat loss. Manual J, it is called. As I was looking for the file I noticed a typo in the proposal I sent for ac. Attched is the corrected one, the price did not change, there was just two different sizes listed. it is done to accomadate the addition you mentioned.

Another....

This is a tough question to answer easily. The problem is all the things that influence the heat load has nothing to do with the actual the actual heating system. What determines the load is the build envelope i.e. Windows, doors, insulation, occupants
And almost every heatload will be a different number depending on the person doing it.. it's to subjective.. what I call poorly insulated you may consider well insulated..

Now depending on your insulation we use 30-40 btu per square foot @ 2000 sq/ft your at 60k-80k output needed to heat your house when it's 10 degrees outside. And this number fluctuates with outdoor temperature..

The rinnai is rated at 110k Btu (I believe) and will modulate down as outdoor temp goes up... I can assure you this is more than enough to heat your space.

We do have a one year guarantee to ensure your satisfaction.

Please let me know if this makes since thru email

Charlie from wmass

That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works. That is my thought on the last answer and the first answer.

KC_Jones

It's called a run around and I think you are getting one from those contractors. That last one is hilarious. My house is over 100 years old with practically no insulation and original Windows and I barely hit 40 per square foot your house probably isn't hitting 30.

Charlie from wmass

Way back in the Dark Ages when I started doing this I was told it is 65 BTUs per square foot for Berkshire County Massachusetts.

Jamie Hall

KC_Jones said:

It's called a run around and I think you are getting one from those contractors. That last one is hilarious. My house is over 100 years old with practically no insulation and original Windows and I barely hit 40 per square foot your house probably isn't hitting 30.

Indeed. My design delta T is 80 degrees. The building is, if anything, worse than and older than @KC_Jones place. The maximum boiler output is 46 BTU/hr/square foot. Under a more reasonable delta T -- say a 10 F design day -- it would be 33.

I'd have to agree that the 110K unit would be enough to heat the place -- and then some!

unclejohn

Did he ever say what type of emitters he has? Triangle Tube now has a 80k Also with a mod con it is not as critical but you have to be in the ball park with the heat loss. Now everyone trash me. Also your water heater has maybe 10 years left. I would just have the installers stub out and valve off for a indirect down the road unless you have too do both to get the rebate.

Rich_49

NickB2005 said:

So, I went back to each company and asked about the heat loss and these are responses I got...



I was talking to John regarding your questions on heat load for home. As part of my cooling load calculations I also completed a heat loss and came out with 80,243 for heating including the potential master bedroom. There are a couple of ways to calculate a properly sized boiler, what John did was measure the radiation in your home, which came out slightly higher with the potential master bedroom. This is important since you want to use a boiler that will heat the existing radiation as well. The boiler John chose is, in my opinion, properly sized for your home.



Another one....



Yes, I did the heat loss. Manual J, it is called. As I was looking for the file I noticed a typo in the proposal I sent for ac. Attched is the corrected one, the price did not change, there was just two different sizes listed. it is done to accomadate the addition you mentioned.



Another....



This is a tough question to answer easily. The problem is all the things that influence the heat load has nothing to do with the actual the actual heating system. What determines the load is the build envelope i.e. Windows, doors, insulation, occupants

And almost every heatload will be a different number depending on the person doing it.. it's to subjective.. what I call poorly insulated you may consider well insulated..



Now depending on your insulation we use 30-40 btu per square foot @ 2000 sq/ft your at 60k-80k output needed to heat your house when it's 10 degrees outside. And this number fluctuates with outdoor temperature..



The rinnai is rated at 110k Btu (I believe) and will modulate down as outdoor temp goes up... I can assure you this is more than enough to heat your space.



We do have a one year guarantee to ensure your satisfaction.



Please let me know if this makes since thru email

30 - 40 BTUh per sq ft is an old Mass rule of thumb . Hav heard it before . South of the Mas Pike is 30 and North of the Pike is 40 . Best bet s to move south of the Pike . You cannot make this stuff up

keyote

The Lochinvar previously mentioned has a KHN085 is perfectly sized for your worst case potential but is one of the best MODCONS as it can modulate down to 1/10 of it maximum. Its an ideal machine to pair with an indirect hot water heater and its control modules are superb.
This heat loss calculation you should do one yourself even if you find a contractor that does one its a matter of taking measurements and plugging them in to any of a dozen free software apps you can find. its not only going to give you an accurate boiler size but it will reveal other system flaws like does a room have enough radiator.
The ac should be inverter technology minisplits and are really going to have nothng to do with the heating system. since these newest minisplits are heat pumps that can run in reverse for heat they could conceivably be usded in spring and fall but its unlikely in mass thats worth while.Its usually a completely different contractor some heat calcs are also used for AC sizing so you will get that accomplished. and doing it yourself gives you a way to double check their math. kepp in mind those calculators already build in some headroom and radiator calculators build in some too so dont round up its been done. the great thing about mod cons is they adjust modulate and they are most efficient when they are modulating the most so sizing them for design day [the coldest expected day year] is not a built in loss and that also means that extra capacity can be used for the heavier load of the indirect water heater without sacrificing the spring fall efficiency.

NickB2005

Thank you all. I'll try to get the measurements done this weekend and will keep you posted.

NickB2005

So, just wanted to update everyone. Heard back from Bob, explained my situation and what I currently have. He hasn't been out to quote but said he could do via email. He said he'd do a full heat loss after he got the job. The pricing seems great, but wanted to see if any of you had any suggestions on the proposal?

I submit a proposal to install a Utica UBSSC-75, 95% High Efficiency Boiler, with 3 zones of heating, and a 45 Gallon SuperStor indirect water tank. My price includes all the necessary valves, fittings and piping needed to complete the Heating System install, including but not limited to three new circulator pumps, and extrol expansion tank, a watts 9D backflow preventer, a watts S1156F water feed valve, a condensate pump with neutralizer, a thermostatic mixing valve on the SuperStor, a spirovent air elimination device, the PVC venting and a carbon monoxide detector.. This job comes with a full 5 year parts and labor guarantee.