Overpumping emitters.

Paul48

@Harvey Ramer
Running a gravity conversion at a 12*DT would come nowhere near replicating the conditions that existed during gravity circulation. Which is what everyone claims to be trying to do. No one would ever suggest balancing a manifold system by increasing pump capacity. The mains in a gravity conversion are nothing more than high-mass manifolds. I understand that not all customers want to go to the time or expense of doing the job correctly. And, this provides an alternate way to get heat to all the radiators. But, it really needs to be framed, and presented, as such.

Again, this is my unprofessional, common sense opinion, based on information learned from ALL the folks here, and on my own.

ChrisJ

"Pumping a system at a 12 degree DT"

What's this mean, the difference between the supply and return water temps is 12 degrees?

ChrisJ

You mean to tell me, in a properly designed hot water system, the radiators get bigger and bigger as you go down the line?

Weird.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

You mean to tell me, in a properly designed hot water system, the radiators get bigger and bigger as you go down the line?

Weird.

No that's not it.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

ChrisJ said:

You mean to tell me, in a properly designed hot water system, the radiators get bigger and bigger as you go down the line?

Weird.

No that's not it.

How do they cope with the cooler water down the line then?

Gordy

Okay let's do this Hat, and Steamhead.

1491 SF. EDR. Gravity system.

Let's put some substance to this.

Both of you come up with your circ of choice, and then compare. Electrical consumption differences, and differences in the deltas the system would see with the circs you choose.

Boiler is a CI variety piped with low return water protection.

If you want size a circ for a direct piped mod/con also.

Heat loss is 100k

Steamhead

Gordy said:

Okay let's do this Hat, and Steamhead.

1491 SF. EDR. Gravity system.

Let's put some substance to this.

Both of you come up with your circ of choice, and then compare. Electrical consumption differences, and differences in the deltas the system would see with the circs you choose.

Boiler is a CI variety piped with low return water protection.

If you want size a circ for a direct piped mod/con also.

Heat loss is 100k

Hmmmm. 1491 square feet of old gravity-piped cast-iron radiation and a heat loss of only 100k at design? That's some serious over-radiation. That amount of radiation can give off 223,650 BTUH at 180°F and the long-standard 20° ΔT. Did they intend to heat the whole house with the windows open? Or maybe the owner had a deep energy retrofit done that cut the heat loss in half? But OK, we'll go with it.

For this example, I will assume that the owner does not want to replace any radiator valves and most of the existing ones are stuck wide open. This is a common scenario in the Baltimore area, though some will go for TRVs in bedrooms and other areas that they want to keep cooler than the main living areas. To circulate this system at or near the rate it would have circulated with the original gravity boiler at full fire, we will need about 36 GPM at a 3-1/2' head. Closely matched to this figure are the B&G PL-36, Grundfos Magna-3 32-60 or UPS-32-40 or Taco 0013. The Magna is, I believe, the only ECM unit mentioned here but I'm sure there will be others- Taco just came out with their 007-e but that's too small for this application.

The 007-e would, however, be the right size for pumping the boiler. 10 GPM at 3-1/2' of head is roughly in the middle of its range. If using a standard circ, maybe a Grundfos UP-15-42 or 15-58. Another interesting option might be one of Taco's 00-VR circs (go here: http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/CAT100-024varspeedoocirc.pdf) which change their speeds using outdoor reset, to vary how much boiler water needs to be injected into the system. I would not use the Taco 006 in this application unless it were available with standard mounting flanges, which AFAIK it is not.

This job would require some way to decouple the boiler from the system. Not having actually seen the job, I'll just say that either a primary-secondary setup or some sort of hydraulic separator could be considered. The I-valve is a nice concept, but it's easier to replace a circulator than a mixing valve if something goes wrong. It's important to be able to get the heat on quickly on a 5° night.

Power consumption would, of course, vary according to what circs we used. I won't go into all the possible variations and permutations yet, let's narrow it down first.

Harvey Ramer

Can I add a rule Gordy?
Good.

The homeowner doesn't have the extra money to pay for individual riser balancing devices or TRV's (the latter being the better cheaper option by the way). Or even if they have the money, they aren't going for it.

And the system is old as dirt, which most of them are.

The reason I suggest this rule is more times than not this is the reality we deal with daily.

Harvey Ramer

Another thing that I might add. Not so long ago a homeowner received some bad information on this very topic from some of the more vocal, with the least experience, people on this site. His system ended up being all jacked up. I gave him free consultation in private and got it fixed up for him. But it still cost him extra money.

Paul48

@Harvey Ramer
Without naming anyone........Give us the details of the bad information, the person was given.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Harvey Ramer said:

Can I add a rule Gordy?
Good.

The homeowner doesn't have the extra money to pay for individual riser balancing devices or TRV's (the latter being the better cheaper option by the way). Or even if they have the money, they aren't going for it.

And the system is old as dirt, which most of them are.

The reason I suggest this rule is more times than not this is the reality we deal with daily.

With the institution of your "rule" obviously Frank's system wins.

The H/O gets a wildly overpumped system with massive room overheating at the elevated boiler SWT (constant for the entire season).

The problem is this is reality.
Just like some of us have 150+ year old houses that leak air like a sieve and need a massive amount of heat added to maintain temperature. Or for that matter, cooling in the summer.

There's no money to fix the problem and even if there was it would likely never pay off anyway, comfort aside of course.

People need to do the best they can with what they have to work with.

Paul48

@Harvey Ramer
That should never be the "rule". That is, and always should be an "exception". See my last post.

Tinman

@ChrisJ - Agreed. It's called the real world.

Rich_49

Hatterasguy said:

Harvey Ramer said:

Another thing that I might add. Not so long ago a homeowner received some bad information on this very topic from some of the more vocal, with the least experience, people on this site. His system ended up being all jacked up. I gave him free consultation in private and got it fixed up for him. But it still cost him extra money.

If you're making an insinuation, you had better state the individual and the exact situation.

Condemning any person who provides free advice over the internet, to the best of their ability, is simply BS. And, furthermore, you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the experience of the individual who provided the advice.

Finally, if the advice was so poor, why didn't you comment in the thread and correct it? Is that not what "heating help" is about?

No, you choose to do a drive by shooting and hope that you don't get caught out by it.

I hope somebody arrests your for it.

Simmer down Hatt . It was not an insinuation but a fact . Nobody should be offended bit instead think more thoroughly about the responses and advice they may offer . We can all just guess who said what and that's that . Hey , maybe it was me ! You know , with all that training and still misunderstanding the basics and all . LMFAO

Tinman

I don't fit the description of the individual Harvey mentioned, but if it was me I'd want to know what I did wrong so I wouldn't do it again. #learningopportunity

Harvey Ramer

I'm not going to name any names nor describe the details of the system, other than part of it was a pumping issue. I don't believe anyone who commented on this thread was involved. It was a couple years back and the situation is resolved. That's all I'm going to say about it.

I guess I'm just saying, we can all be careful because people are reading and spending real money based on the things we write.

Tinman

Paul48

Harvey's obviously being coached by Donald Trump.

ChrisJ

Paul48 said:

Harvey's obviously being coached by Donald Trump.

Woah.
Them's fighting words.

Paul48

Sorry Donald!

Erin Holohan Haskell

Gentlemen, enough with the back and forth. Let's get this thread back on track.

ARsales1

Thank you Erin.

Canucker

Stephen Minnich said:

Thanks @Stephen Minnich ! Don't you care how much beer can sting when it comes out your nose? At least I turned my head far enough to miss the laptop. Hahaha

Erin Holohan Haskell

Guys, what part of that did you not understand? That's not in the spirit of this place. Stop this bickering now.

Gordy

I will take full responsibility for stirring the pot though not intentional. My hope was to find a common understanding of each other's perceptions, and theories. I posted this several posts back. It is still how I feel about the methodology of it.

Gordy said:

I fully understand both sides of the argument. The question becomes how much time does a contractor spend to get it perfect. Perfect is Hats perspective. Nothing wrong with that, and I'm quite sure with enough devoted time it would work. That time involved is greatly dependent on how the potential systems condition is.

Time is money. when it comes to the three bid owner that needs the work done who will they choose? Obviously perfect is more involved than better than what was there so that bid will be higher. If better than what was there makes the owner a happy customer compared to what they had I get that. If you get the job, and can talk them into perfect so be it.

Frank put some time, and effort into a theory that does work, and has some substance that can be applied with out much effort with an edr survey. It's not perfect, but it does give results that are most likley better than what they had.

The savings of perfect is not a heck of a lot unless you can drop to an ECM circ. Most likley in a constant pressure mode setting with constant circulation as Kurt has done. In his example savings were quite measurable. With a drop from say a b&g series 100 HV to a taco 007 in a bang bang set up not so much. In the end the owner has heat to all rads. They saved on electric due to the smaller pump that is still over pumping compared to perfection.

Now if we are strapping a mod/con to the system then Hats stand point has even more substance to get the con out of the mod. But with ci boiler not so much..

I can tell you that you can narrow a system delta by changing circs, and still save watts. I did it on my own system. Changing from a series 100 HV to a pl30 wet rotar increased my flow rate, and saved about 50 watts in power consumption. System delta narrowed from 15 to 13. Radiant side.

ARsales1

50 watts /1000= .05 kWh x 2000 hours of run time for a season = 100 kWh x .15 cents per kWh = $15 a year / 7 months of the season = $2.14 a month savings.

Paul48

My heart be still!

Gordy

ARsales1 said:

50 watts /1000= .05 kWh x 2000 hours of run time for a season = 100 kWh x .15 cents per kWh = $15 a year / 7 months of the season = $2.14 a month savings.

That's my point.

Tinman

GAS? Dude - show some respect for Erin, will ya?

Paul48

UhOh.........Now Hat's got GAS problems.

Mad Dog_2

HEY! SHOW ERIN SOME RESPECT BOYS. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. MAD DOG

Erin Holohan Haskell

Agreed. Thank you.

DanHolohan

I wrote a story called Nine by 12 (it's in the Blog). There's a part of that story that goes like this:

Erin, nurtured the exact same way from the moment she and her sister arrived at home, was a maelstrom. Colleen would whimper a bit and wait for us to change her. Erin would tear off her diaper and throw it at us from her crib. Colleen would lift her leg to try to climb out of her crib. We'd say no, and she would sit down. Erin, who walked at nine months, would toss her leg over the crib rail and fall to the floor. I'd gasp, admonish her, and put her back. She'd do it again. I'd put her back. She'd do it again. And again.

I realized I wasn't going to win this battle of wills. I got out of her way.

- See more at: https://heatinghelp.com/blog/nine-by-12/#sthash.kmSL9spF.dpuf

Gentlemen, this woman has a long fuse, but when she's had enough, she acts, and she doesn't change her mind once she does.

Fair warning.

Mad Dog_2

I know Frank (Steamhead) AND his great body of work for close to 20 yrs. I give more credence and benefit of the doubt to a known and proven installer whose work and experiments I have seen here on the Wall and in person, than to one positing academic exercises. Track record and ones rounds in the ring mean EVERYTHING in the real world. Respectfully. Mad Dog

Erin Holohan Haskell

@Mad Dog - I respect the work, dedication, and passion of everyone in this forum. We all have something to bring to the table. So please do not fan the flames of these arguments by turning it into an us vs. them type of thing, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

And to all - As I've said before, these arguments and personal attacks are a waste of time, alienate people, and ultimately hurt Heating Help. If you enjoy being here, then please think before you post. If what you say is not going to add value, then don't say it.

DanHolohan

Mad Dog, she's right.

Paul48

It's too bad there isn't some type of "arbitration" to settle differences. Well.......It's better than walking ten paces, turning and firing.

ARsales1

Amen, three cheers for Erin.

Mad Dog_2

Understood. I've just never known Steamhead to be anything but super helpful, calm, level headed and just plain nice. Just backing up a good man. All good. Everyone have a great weekend. Mad Dog

4Johnpipe

We can be right or we can be happy...sometimes both occur...I like to be happy...Let's call this one a wrap...