WM ECO70 vs KHN055

Solid_Fuel_Man

Was at a Weil Mclain show and seemed impressed with their boilers. Looking at the ECO70 No Frills package seems to be the same boiler as their Ultra models but without all the controls. Wish they had a 10 to 1 turn down ratio like Lochinvar does on the khn 055. But the price was attractive and I don't want to pay for all the controls on the Lochinvar since I already have that in place.

I wish Lochinvar made a stripped-down version for less money then the khn.
Both are available at local supply houses, so parts should not be an issue.

As I've stated in other threads, I am in oil territory, so mod cons are very few and far between. Propane is becoming much more popular in the last 5 years.

Thoughts?

Taylor

njtommy

The whole reason to go with the lochinvar over the Weil Mclain in my eyes is the turn down ratio and controls.

If your using a buffer tank then the turn down ratio isn't a big deal. The control side is nice do to being able to run multiple out door reset curves and staging them from a T-stat for night setback and things like that. If you not going to take advantage of the controls it just not worth buying.

hot_rod

Just looking at online prices for the two machines there is a difference in price, of course. If you amortize that over the expected 20 lifespan it looks better.

If the additional features are noir desired or required, go with a more basis boiler.

If shoppers are chatting the highest efficiency, fewest cycles and highest amount of control interface, the more expensive option may be best in the long run.

Not all fire tube boilers are the same, look at the dimensions of the HX and tanks also.

Gordy

Look at the cadet by Lochinvar. It does not have the FT HX though. However the smallest size is a 40 with low end of 9k.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I am quite intrigued with the lowest of low fire, the fire tube is not really a necessity as I'm already setup for high head on my backup heat source with a Taco 0015 and pri/sec. I have a thermos of a house, but do have a cast iron (refinished rads generously oversized) zone for upstairs which I will honestly have to calculate my EDR. Will have to figure out how many btu that zone can dissipate at a given (low) water temp.

I was talking to the WM rep about when they would have a 10:1 on all their boilers not just the Evergreen.

Won't be pulling the trigger on this project for at least this winter as I have a full tank of oil to "liberate btu's from". I will have to refrain from burning exclusively wood as this tank of oil is already 5 years old....

Taylor

Gordy

40k, and 9k is high low input on the cdn 40.

Charlie from wmass

Watch water quality with any aluminum boiler.

njtommy

I took a couple classes this year at WM office near me and they did say there fire tubes are identical and made by the same manufacturer that Triangle Tube uses. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or bad I don't ever see any TT boilers.

Solid_Fuel_Man

The rep said that to our group as well.

@Charlie from wmass I don't think any are aluminum. The WM and khn are firetube, and the cadet is a Giannoni HX, if I'm not mistaken. Aluminum will not be in my future for HX material.

Taylor

Charlie from wmass

Yeah I tried to come back to the thread correct my statement I just got bit last week by an ultra aluminum so I'm kind of touchy.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Sorry to hear that charlie! Aluminum is a great material and has many uses where it is advantageous over other materials, wetted surface is not one of them for sure.

I wonder how all these new r410 coils made of aluminum will hold up long term. Just replaced a txv in a Trane with aluminum last week.

Taylor

SWEI

njtommy said:

I took a couple classes this year at WM office near me and they did say there fire tubes are identical and made by the same manufacturer that Triangle Tube usesd.

The HX which TT used in their original Prestige line (MCBA control) is now available in many other brands of boiler. Current TT boilers (TriMax) have an updated HX that employs a polypropylene bottom pan to reduce the risk of damage from chloride leaching.

ISTR the Kiturami HX used in current 10:1 offerings having aluminum fins, but I've yet to see one of those cut open.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I know the Weil Mclain has a polypropylene bottom pan that was one thing that the rep stressed. This is a recent change he said. "We learned a lot about condensing boilers the hard way" he exclaimed.

Taylor

Charlie from wmass

This ultra was leaking at the center of the block. Most rotted out on the bottom, at least that is the supply house rumor. I will say no issue with the warranty, Weil McLain covered the block no problem. I will be looking at the stainless steel boilers more.

Gordy

How old Charlie? What was the system ph?

Gordy

Charlie from wmass said:

Yeah I tried to come back to the thread correct my statement I just got bit last week by an ultra aluminum so I'm kind of touchy.

That's worth sharing on any thread about boiler purchasing.

Charlie from wmass

Ph was low it was 5 years old. Or 7 years old. I never installed it. Installer said gas requires no maintenance.

Gordy

Of course not if you like rotating boilers regularly.

Charlie from wmass

This is the installation. Sorry for hijacking the thread. I will continue on a new thread if there is interest.

hot_rod

Charlie from wmass said:

This is the installation. Sorry for hijacking the thread. I will continue on a new thread if there is interest.

I saw John Smart from Weil this week, they now have some sort of baked on ceramic coating they are applying inside the aluminum. Sounds like they have tried a few other coating methods to address water quality concerns.

Gordy

It's solid fuel mans thread. I'm interested. I don't think it's hijacking in this case he's a pro.

Solid_Fuel_Man

No hijacking at all. Tour quote the rep at close as I can "weil mclain is in the casting business, so we are casting aluminum for our boilers instead of all iron". He and another rep also really said they liked to gv90+ as it has iron primary and ss secondary HX, said it was great for higher temp retrofits. Somehow it condenses with higher RWT...

Taylor

Rich_49

SWEI said:

njtommy said:

I took a couple classes this year at WM office near me and they did say there fire tubes are identical and made by the same manufacturer that Triangle Tube usesd.

The HX which TT used in their original Prestige line (MCBA control) is now available in many other brands of boiler. Current TT boilers (TriMax) have an updated HX that employs a polypropylene bottom pan to reduce the risk of damage from chloride leaching.

ISTR the Kiturami HX used in current 10:1 offerings having aluminum fins, but I've yet to see one of those cut open.

The aluminum fins are in the dry portion and are pressed in .

hot_rod

Hatterasguy said:

Rich said:

SWEI said:

njtommy said:

I took a couple classes this year at WM office near me and they did say there fire tubes are identical and made by the same manufacturer that Triangle Tube usesd.

The HX which TT used in their original Prestige line (MCBA control) is now available in many other brands of boiler. Current TT boilers (TriMax) have an updated HX that employs a polypropylene bottom pan to reduce the risk of damage from chloride leaching.

ISTR the Kiturami HX used in current 10:1 offerings having aluminum fins, but I've yet to see one of those cut open.

The aluminum fins are in the dry portion and are pressed in .

and they are extruded..............not cast.

Are the fins in the combustion side? Flue gasses from various fossil fuel "blends" and potential for chlorides leaching from PVC exposed to high temperatures can be a challenge for aluminum and alloys.

Maybe that is the reason for looking at coatings for aluminum boilers for both water and combustion side protection.

If the condensate drains and de-neutralizers are filling with crud.....

SWEI

What HX does Lochinvar use in the KHN?

Rich_49

Have been told manufacturer is Polish . Maybe Bob would know or be more able to get specifics .

hot_rod

SWEI said:

What HX does Lochinvar use in the KHN?

I heard they were using the supplier that built the TT hx. TT either changed suppliers or are building their own now is the story I'm hearing.

Usually, under the hood there will be a metal label attached.

This is on a Laars mod con, I believe HTP may use the same HX or manufacturer.

Rich_49

Kiturami does in fact manufacture a couple units for HTP .
EFTC , UFT and tankless units I believe . Firetube HXs for the US stuff also .

SWEI

hot rod said:

SWEI said:

What HX does Lochinvar use in the KHN?

I heard they were using the supplier that built the TT hx. TT either changed suppliers or are building their own now is the story I'm hearing.

The original TT HX was made in Poland and is now being sold to numerous boiler manufacturers. I know Lochinvar uses it in the WHN, but I've yet to see the inside of a KHN. Are they really getting 10:1 turndown with the same HX everyone else (including including Lochinvar) runs at 5:1?

Solid_Fuel_Man

I'm curious what the HX has to do with the allowable turndown. As long as the burner can maintain good combustion at low fireing rates, how would the HX play a role? Since we are trying to achieve as much condensation as possible, would not the largest HX practical be the goal. Up to the point of diminishing returns of course. I'm sure there is a specific RWT that a manufacturer calculates the diminishing returns on as far as square feet of HX per burner max input.

Taylor

Gordy

If you look at HX sizes across mod cons usually the same size HX is shared between two input sizes. Except the htp uft. It's sizes 80-199 share the very same 3 gal HX.

Solid_Fuel_Man

That's what I assumed, which led me to the question of what the HX had to do with the turndown ratio. Even the weights of several units are the same with different inputs.

Taylor

Charlie from wmass

So here's a question for you. Why do the boilers with the lower outputs have a lower cost? If they are all the same heat exchanger basically all the same burner only differing in firing rate the only cost difference could possibly be a different circulator for a different flow rate. I'm not looking to speak specifically of cost just abstractly of cost.

hot_rod

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

That's what I assumed, which led me to the question of what the HX had to do with the turndown ratio. Even the weights of several units are the same with different inputs.



Taylor

You will find that different brands of the same BTU output boiler may have differences in the HX size. Some literature will indicate heating surface area for example. The physical dimension of the boiler or HX may indicate this and a higher priced, same sized, boiler from another manufacturer may have a larger HX. More metal more cost.

Charlie from wmass

Functions of x for prices please Hat.

SWEI

AFAIK higher than 5:1 turndowns generally require changes to the airflow beyond slowing down the fan. I suspect Kirutami includes this in the package they sell with the HX.

Kirutami is based in Korea, and also has a Chinese domain for what could be a parent company. I'm guessing they undercut pricing from the EU and domestic HX suppliers.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Charlie from wmass said:

Functions of x for prices please Hat.

Just want to clarify our rule on discussing pricing: We can mention prices for products if the prices are available online for all to see. We just can't discuss what one contractor charges vs. another to install said products because that could lead to price fixing, which is illegal. Thanks!

Solid_Fuel_Man

So after commissioning one of 12 viessmann 200s, 2/building and 6 buildings... I've been intrigued as what IMHO the wall hails as the gold standard in boilers.

Doing some research on Viessmann led me to the vitocrossal cu3a, wow! The white paper does a good job of explaining high turndowns and excess air and how condensation is less at low fire. Their high mass mod cons with 5:1 is the answer. Now I can't get over it! Wow, I want one!

Anyone ever use their combustion analyzer on a mod cons at low fire? If efficiency is lower while in deep modulation, then a lot of rationale goes out the window..rather the flue, with high excess air blowing the heat right through the HX. How much excess air is used on various models, and I wonder what published data would be at low fire with the same 86F RWT they use for high fire efficiencies.

Taylor.

Gordy

Mass is always the Achilles heel in any mod/con. Unless the emitters can achieve it.

The question is how many points you gain through condensing at the low end verses points saved by being in the low end modulation.

Condensing picks up a few points, but the ability to modulate to the load gains much more.

Would there not be less condensing at low fire compared to high anyway? If optimal condensing efficiency is achieved there should be a direct correlation as to quanity of condensate to btu output ratio at X efficiency. So 10:1 turn down if I'm at max fire of 100k, and efficiency is 95%. I produce 1 gal of condensate per hour then at 10k if at 95% efficiency still it should be 12.8 oz per hour.

If it's a 5:1 then 100k 1 gal, and 20k 25.6 oz respectively.

All this of course with same RWT.

Just wondering.

Gordy

Interesting how this graph only goes to 30% modulation. The trend would indicate low return temps flatten out if extended to 20% while higher temp emitters climb more rapidly approaching 20%.

Charlie from wmass

The phase change of the combustion gases to liquid is the magic to increased afue.