Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Radiant ceilings?

keyote
keyote Member Posts: 659
edited September 2016 in Radiant Heating
Some of you may know Im renovating my way top down an old brooklyn townhouse, the top floors done in radiant floors, the basements got a slab i may chop up and repour lower with tubes or maybe panel rads?
But the second and first floor i have radiant floors planned in my heat loss with loopcad those floors are 12kbtuh and 16 kbtuh
Now I am wondering if i should rethink floors and do the ceilings instead. Here's why.

Siggys book seemed to me to be saying; why not works fine. counter intuitive but its radiant not convection right?

Watching the top floor tenants stuff their one bedrooms to the gills with ikea boy **** im wondering about controlling for floor covering. But ceilings never are cluttered

It was extremely difficult to route loops particularly the leaders in a way that nailing down the 3/4 hardwood was still possible and even then its stressful [imagine a nail on your last board] and of course I worry about wood damage from heat or a leak

any thoughts on general idea or tactics appreciated

Comments

  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,662
    I'm a big fan and have done them a number of ways.

    Check out Radiant Engineering's U-fin extruded plates.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    SWEIGordy
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,662
    This is a job we did from '03-ish using u-fin.



    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    SWEIGordyChrisJ
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,662
    You have much greater flexibility in design...supply water temperatures being the biggest.

    Beware the drywall crew!
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    You get it. No obstructed output. You can actually achieve a higher btu SF than radiant floors by running higher SWT if need be. This is due to not having the foot comfort factor to worry about. More potential radiant surface to work with. The comfort while not giving you radiant floors is second to none.

    You can actually use higher SWT to save on up front install costs, or which I like better tighter tube centers with low SWT.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Also you never have to worry about ever changing floor coverings, and wood being so sensitive to the peak floor temp threshold.
  • keyote
    keyote Member Posts: 659
    Im guessing i could should use 3/8 tubing and tighter spacing which is lighter and more pliable as well. I wonder if i could design it so I didnt need hotter water but that might be tough with 3/8 tubes, other wize i guess i would return the 2 way zone valves for those floors and get three way?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    3/8" is fine. Mine is 3/8" copper 6" on center. Never see over 115 SWT at below design day. Mostly 105 ish RWT of low 90's high 80's.

    However plates are deffinetly in that equation for pex, and drywall assembly.
  • keyote
    keyote Member Posts: 659
    edited September 2016
    the boiler can do a third temp and control mixers I wonder if i can more simply assign a higher temp curve to those valves without mixing. But why would higher swt be cheaper 3/8 tubing?
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,662
    @Gordy - Isn't the Multi Temperature Loop Control needed to run the control of the 3 SWT's through the boiler? It was on the WHN.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    Gordy
  • keyote
    keyote Member Posts: 659
    nice job steph have you ever use sheetrock sleepers and ridgid foam like in siggys book, theres a ceiling framing product the carpenter use a lot on the fancy ceiling called ridgid x its kind of like a beefed up grid like for acoustical but they screw rock to it
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,662
    I have not done it that way. Yet.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    keyote said:

    the boiler can do a third temp and control mixers I wonder if i can more simply assign a higher temp curve to those valves without mixing. But why would higher swt be cheaper 3/8 tubing?

    Up front costs on tubing, and plates through using wider centers.

  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    The MTLC is a seperate option. Don't confuse the smart control as having this feature. It is simply a plug and play box for seperate modules.

    I really see no need to have to run multiple reset curves in your installation.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    keyote said:

    nice job steph have you ever use sheetrock sleepers and ridgid foam like in siggys book, theres a ceiling framing product the carpenter use a lot on the fancy ceiling called ridgid x its kind of like a beefed up grid like for acoustical but they screw rock to it

    However you choose to build your sandwich plate contact to the back of the drywall is a MUST to achieve potential output.

  • keyote
    keyote Member Posts: 659
    I know the mixer controller is an expensive option, probably better making it myself if needed. But i thought the boiler can have a third swt temp and curve even without it. or couldnt the dhw setting be tricked into doing it Only thought since you mentioned higher temps for ceilings it might be needed.
    Probably playing with loop layouts could get the btu and be within the pump heads and at the same water temp
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,662
    I have not looked closely at your project/design but if you need another SWT, I would recommend the Taco iSeries mixing valve.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    GordySWEI
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,662
    Sorry Gordy. Didn't see your post of no need for more than one SWT.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    keyote said:

    I know the mixer controller is an expensive option, probably better making it myself if needed. But i thought the boiler can have a third swt temp and curve even without it. or couldnt the dhw setting be tricked into doing it Only thought since you mentioned higher temps for ceilings it might be needed.
    Probably playing with loop layouts could get the btu and be within the pump heads and at the same water temp


    I should have never said what I did......

    Keep your tubing density as such to exploit LOWER SWT which means lower RWT which means a mod/con is more efficient.

    I was merrily sounding off on the benefits radiant ceilings can give.


  • keyote
    keyote Member Posts: 659
    I know we were all just thinking out loud.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    edited September 2016
    Using Sunboards foam product on the ceiling is really nice . You can also use thinner drywall boards also since the surface above is solid . tubing is right in the installers face and visible . thinner rock means less resistance , graphite layer speeds heat transfer , no air spaces at all . They will make it in 3/8" for you and possibly on 6" centers .

    Company is in Bohemia , not too far from you and the price is good if you know how to do math .

    http://www.sunboardpanel.com/ressources/fichiers/f61c2ef1263d.pdf

    http://www.sunboardpanel.com/ressources/fichiers/c4c687322a77.pdf



    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Gordyjonny88
  • keyote
    keyote Member Posts: 659
    Thanks rich i think i read somewhere graphite was really good plate material, from there website its actually the best and the one they use on the foam and the cheapest product they have and no radio interference sold
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    There's a good reason why graphite is so widely utilized to move heat away from things .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Gordy