Please critique

Tinman

Am I close?

How overkill is the 3" risers and headers? I know its a small boiler but I don't mind overkill.

Is the VXT-120 a good choice for a feeder?

Is it ok to bush down the 2 1/2" return tap to 2"?

Should I install more tees on the returns in case I need more venting?

We're not doing this until later this month - waiting on a permit from the City of Chicago. Ok, maybe longer.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Fred

It looks good. The 3" risers, out of the boiler is great. Will the header be 3" as well? The VXT is a good feeder. How long are the Mains? That will determine how much venting you will need on each Main. The Gorton #2's are 1/2" mount. I would put a 3/4" Tee in those locations and bush them down to 1/2", if the Gorton 2 is sufficient. If you need a bit more than a single Gorton #2 on each Main, I'd use a Barnes and Jones Big Mouth at those locations and they require a 3/4" mount. If you decide to stay with multiple Gorton 2's (if more than one is required on each main, you can build an antler and mount them on a single tee.
The other thing I didn't see on your plan is drain valves/locations to flush out the wet return. Yes, it is OK to bush down the return tap.

Tinman

Awesome. The header will be 3" too. The mains are roughly 25'. I have a valve for skimming. I'll work on the wet return flush valve.

Thank you, Fred!

Fred

A single Gorton #2 should be fine on those 25' mains.

Tinman

Better?

Fred

If the other end of that horizontal wet return is, in fact the end of the wet return, I would put a valve there too. Makes it easy to open both ends, put a hose on one end and flush the water out the other end.

Bio

You'll need the VXT24 for that boiler

EzzyT

@Stephen Minnich what you have specced is good and agree with Fred that 1 Gorton 2 is sufficient enough for the main venting but doesn't hurt to ad the extra tee just in case you need more venting

Tinman

Thanks again. This is fun : )

ChrisJ

A Big Mouth will get you more venting at a lower cost of space and money.

Tinman

@ChrisJ - Easy to find?

ChrisJ

Stephen Minnich said:

@ChrisJ - Easy to find?

Yessir

https://www.amazon.com/Barnes-Jones-Big-Mouth-Vent/dp/B01F26P13C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473190459&sr=8-1&keywords=Big+Mouth+vent

Tinman

Sweet!

Tinman

Just ordered them. Thanks Chris.

Danny Scully

@Stephen Minnich , there are no other wet returns, right? If you're setting up a purge you'll want a drain valve on both ends, and isolation from the dry returns. This way, you can force water through the piping. And as far as bushing down goes, I use a full size nipple and reducing tee. That's just personal preference. I like having the full size on the run of the tee for wand cleaning. 2" isn't that small though lol. Like I said, just personal preference.

Danny Scully

@Hatterasguy, doesn't the 101A only satisfy the LWCO?

Tinman

@Hatterasguy - 9 fps isn't a bad thing, right?

Fred

The 101A is the water feeder. The MM #67 is the LWCO.

Danny Scully

If I may respond, no it is not bad @Stephen Minnich

EzzyT

9' fps is a very good thing

Danny Scully

@Stephen Minnich, the benefit of the VXT is that it can be set to fill the boiler to its NWL. It also has a meter as you know, and a lock out function which will prevent it from feeding more than 3 times in the event of a leak somewhere in the system. Everything does, however, have the potential to fail as @Hatterasguy is suggesting about the vxt. If you decide to go with the 101A, let the customer know they should always manually fill the boiler, as simply satisfying the LWCO isn't ideal for system operation in my opinion. The 101A will be a backup if the customer should forget. Even with the VXT you should instruct the customer to routinely check the meter.

Danny Scully

@Hatterasguy, I'm sure the satisfying of the LWCO within a 1/2-1" would make for the exact NWL of certain boilers, I just like the flexibility of the VXT and the additional functions it offers.

JUGHNE

Having replaced only a few wet returns right at the boiler, what I did while installing new piping was to install crosses at the low portion before it goes up to the Hartford Loop tee. Also put a Tee rather than the 90 going into the HL tee. Plugs installed in crosses, but a 3/4" boiler drain installed to drain the "Wet Piping" and then open to brush out in all directions.
The manual CW feed would flush most crud away.

Could that wet return be 1 1/2 rather than 2"?
You show your steam mains to be two 1 1/4"??

I believe the Ward fitting site shows blk wye fittings.

Steamhead

I'm not sure you'll get much benefit by adding the second 3-inch riser on that size boiler. But it can't hurt.

It looks like your main vents are located at the ends of overhead ("dry") return lines that drain the ends of the steam mains. I prefer to put main vents at the ends of the steam mains rather than the dry returns, so we don't fill the dry returns with steam. But if the preferred location is not easily accessible, your way will work. Just insulate those dry returns well and they won't lose so much heat.

Those little Peerless 63 boilers are built like tanks.

New England SteamWorks

Bio said:

You'll need the VXT24 for that boiler

I put in a 63-05 or -06 in early Spring and thought the same. But I seem to recall it had a sticker on it stating it needed the 120 model, which I then had to go out and get, so I would double check. My memory (as always) could be faulty...

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

I'm not sure you'll get much benefit by adding the second 3-inch riser on that size boiler. But it can't hurt.

It looks like your main vents are located at the ends of overhead ("dry") return lines that drain the ends of the steam mains. I prefer to put main vents at the ends of the steam mains rather than the dry returns, so we don't fill the dry returns with steam. But if the preferred location is not easily accessible, your way will work. Just insulate those dry returns well and they won't lose so much heat.

Those little Peerless 63 boilers are built like tanks.

On that note, better recommend insulating the dry returns.
I insulated mine, and have considered moving my vents to the end of the dry return just so I can check them easier, but at the same time as Frank said, now I'll be heating 15 feet of pipe with steam that I don't have to.

I insulated it to keep the condensate hot.

That crawl space gets colder and colder every year. I'm going to have to do something soon because the last two years the kitchen floor was sweating above a section of it.

EzzyT

The peerless 63 series use the 120 volt lwco so yes the 120 model Vxt is required

New England SteamWorks

" This ongoing love affair with the VXT is ridiculous IMHO."

And since when was love ever rational?

I love the VXT. Nothing kills a boiler faster than make-up water and the VXT is the best way to monitor that make-up water. It's not the auto-feeder I love, it's the big bright LED counter I love. I like the auto feeder (as long as it has a counter).

ChrisJ

RI_SteamWorks said:

" This ongoing love affair with the VXT is ridiculous IMHO."

And since when was love ever rational?

I love the VXT. Nothing kills a boiler faster than make-up water and the VXT is the best way to monitor that make-up water. It's not the auto-feeder I love, it's the big bright LED counter I love. I like the auto feeder (as long as it has a counter).

My beef with the VXT is the best time, and proper time to feed water is right when you fire the burner up. This way you start boiling that fresh water as fast as possible, and you get the longest run time possible after feeding fresh water.

Feeding water and shutting the burner down, turns my stomach.

Of course, this opinion of mine may be unwarranted, but so far it is in my mind.

New England SteamWorks

Your design is great, 3" pipes and all. -That's how I would do it. The only thing I would change (beyond the drains in the returns and venting already discussed) is to place the water feed between the boiler and the Hartford loop, and to place a valve after the Hartford loop, and a drain after that. This way you could:

1. Fire the boiler initially with that valve closed and the water feed trickling and all of the first oily condensate produced could be drained away and never make it's way back to the boiler.
2. In conjunction with your supply king valves you could close all three and blow the boiler down annually.

Below is Dan's favorite piping diagram, which shows this.

BobC

I've had steam boilers in my apartments and house since 1967 and none of them has had an autofeeder but they did have a LWCO. Autofeeders just encourage people to ignore the boiler and they add another failure point.

If I had to go on a business trip for any length of time I would have a neighbor walk through the house to pick up the mail and check the boiler water level. I never had a problem in all those years but I did check the operation of the LWCO every year.

Bob

Danny Scully

@RI_SteamWorks, I prefer the way @Stephen Minnich proposed the water feed because it can prevent thermal shock better I think. But your preferred method has its advantages too.

KC_Jones

Hatterasguy said:

The 101 will do just as good a job as the VXT and it will outlast the VXT by a factor of at least 3X. This ongoing love affair with the VXT is ridiculous IMHO.

I bought the VXT because my old boiler had a hydrolevel safegard auto feeder on it (electronic). After 32 years it still worked perfectly, I honestly debated about installing it on the new boiler. I liked being able to track water usage with the meter so I upgraded. If the old unit was any indication of how the new unit will hold up I am not worried about longevity. So by my numbers you would expect a 101 to last 96 years?

New England SteamWorks

Actually, we are dealing with two questions here:
1. Should a steam boiler have an auto feeder?
2. Should a steam boiler have a feed water counter?

The answer to #1 is debatable, but the answer to #2 is not. And the worst of all possible worlds is an auto feeder with no counter.

New England SteamWorks

Danny Scully said:

@RI_SteamWorks, I prefer the way @Stephen Minnich proposed the water feed because it can prevent thermal shock better I think. But your preferred method has its advantages too.

Point taken. The VXT feeds too slowly for this, but there is always the danger I suppose that someone might come along and instead of using the VXT feed switch, bypass it and feed full bore via the valve. Remote if the VXT is working, but plausible I suppose.

BTW, has anyone ever actually experienced a cracked boiler from thermal shock?!

New England SteamWorks

Hatterasguy said:

RI_SteamWorks said:

It's not the auto-feeder I love, it's the big bright LED counter I love. I like the auto feeder (as long as it has a counter).

Go get yourself a divorce:

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/Flow/WaterMeters/SeriesWM2

This meter will be actually useful in 10 years.

I've tried that route over the years. Can't get a homeowner to bother (requires record keeping). VXT is simple and bright, and it gets re-set every season back to zero. It's also a nice shiny bright object, which is quite helpful.

And I can honestly say I have not found VXTs to be unreliable or having a high failure rate. If that were the case, I wouldn't be in love.

Who needs an unreliable lover?

ChrisJ

Wait what?
Unreliable lover?

BobC

i agree that if you install an autofeeder it should have a counter on it so you can monitor what it's doing. i always kept a log on my boilers to note how much water was added (inches on the gauge glass) and note any observations i might have. Over the years that practice has allowed me to spot problems and address them before they became major.

Some folks don't want to be bothered with this and they are usually the ones who bellow the loudest when an expensive repair has to be performed. Ignoring a boiler can cost you a lot of money, a spiral note pad is pretty cheap.

Bob

ChrisJ

I'll be honest, I too prefer a mechanical meter and yes, it is annoying you cannot reset it though I swear someone made one that you could?

Either way, I feel the VXT is fine for most people who need an auto feeder.

Tinman

I'm going back to look at the job more thoroughly after re-reading Dan's The Lost Art of... Is there a good chance I'm going to find plugs at the ends of the steam mains where vents use to be?

Tinman

My Big Mouths came today. : )

I had to simplify the plan on this one. I had already bid and sold the job when I posted the sketch of the full size risers and drop header. Details of the near boiler piping weren't included other than "per manufacturer's recommendations". I know. I know.

Once you guys approved the sketch, I got a bid on the additional pipe and fittings and I just couldn't fit it in on this one. Gotta pay attention to the business side too. Learning the "best" way will pay off on the next one, so thank you!

Would you mind taking a look at the simlified sketch? I feel like I'm missing something?