Repiping my boiler

adambnyc

Hey there,

Adam in North Jersey here. Im repiping my independence steam boiler. Been reading this forum carefully. You guys are awesome! I'm attaching some pictures of what I started with. the plumber claimed to be a "steam specialist" which turns out couldn't be further from the truth. RTFM! I've been getting alot of surging since this boiler was installed 4 years ago and never really thought much about it. Doing a basement renovation and had to move some of my feeder pipes to 2 rads and it opened up a new job for me to do.

Question, Does the equalizer NEED to be 1 1/2, or can I just tap into the existing 2" copper already there? See pictures

Abracadabra

2" equalizer is fine as long as the copper is below the water line. I would have gone bigger on the header if it was me, but I'm sure someone will pipe up (pun not intended) and say that 3" is overkill.

Where are you going to skim from?

adambnyc

Yep, I agree on the 3" header. I was RTFM, and it showed only needing a 2" header, so i went that route without doing much more digging. Only after i purchased/built all of this did i see that i should have gone with a 3" header. not sure it would warrant me pulling all this apart and redoing it again.

I didnt think I had a skim port untill 10 minutes ago where someone pointed out where it was. So i will be opening that up and making it accessible.

ChrisJ

Is that an IN5 or an IN6?

If it's an IN5, since it's already together I would leave the 2" header. The 3 would've been nice, but what's done is done.

Do a 2" equalizer with a 2" ell pointing straight down. That'll help get all the water out you can. Also try to pitch the header as much as you can down towards the equalizer.

I did a 2" copper equalizer on mine, and was sorry I did because I had to buy a length of copper and it cost me an arm, leg and a few toes from Mcmaster which was the only place I could find it at the time.

adambnyc

Its an IN5. I have way too much 2" copper laying around after pulling apart what was already there, probably around 30 feet or so. I've got about 1/2" of pitch on the header.

KC_Jones

adambnyc said:

Its an IN5. I have way too much 2" copper laying around after pulling apart what was already there, probably around 30 feet or so. I've got about 1/2" of pitch on the header.

You won't feel that way when you recycle it.

adambnyc

does all copper need to be below the water line? all of my returns are copper including what is above the water line.

ChrisJ

adambnyc said:

does all copper need to be below the water line? all of my returns are copper including what is above the water line.

Depends on who you ask.
My opinion is straight runs are harmless, meaning runs that won't be pushed apart from thermal expansion.

Can you post pictures of the returns? I'm betting they will be fine.

adambnyc

take a look at picture #4. Two pipes on the left of the shot.

ChrisJ

adambnyc said:

take a look at picture #4. Two pipes on the left of the shot.

The vertical ones?
What do they connect to?

I'd say they'll be fine.

adambnyc

Can anyone tell me which one is the skim port?

ChrisJ

adambnyc said:

Can anyone tell me which one is the skim port?

The one that is knocked out already.

adambnyc

Then I knocked out the right one! Just wanted to be sure. Thanks!

adambnyc

any tips on removing a stuck plug?

ChrisJ

adambnyc said:

any tips on removing a stuck plug?

What size wrench are you using?
Only thing I can think of is heat it with a torch some but don't get carried away.

An impact gun would likely pop it right out.

Danny Scully

Burnham's plugs are incredibly hard to remove without taking a majority of the right side cover off. And even then they can strip and require a sawzall. I always wanted to try a socket, but haven't yet.

adambnyc

I was staring at the impact gun. I gotta find a socket that fits. You hit the nail in the head with that comment Danny. It's a PIA to take that wall off. A lot of stuff has to come off including the pressure valve. So I just kinda unscrewed the wall best I could and got a wrench in there. The 24" doesn't quite catch and the 18" isn't really enough.

Ok, no magic bullet, try again tomorrow. Thanks!

adambnyc

Alrighty, that plug isn't budging. 24" plus cheater, didn't move, impact wrench only rounded it out. Hit it with PB a few times. What's next? Should I drill it out then come at it with the sawzall?

ChrisJ

What about cold chisel at an angle trying to spin it from the edge?

Danny Scully

sorry that's annoying. Yes, cut a portion of the head off the plug, it's hollow. Then cut a sawzall blade to fit or use a jigsaw even to cut from the hollow portion up through the male threads, carefully. Make 2 cuts, forming a "v". Then gently tap that "v" with a chisel. Try and pull that portion out with pliers. Then, grab the remaing portion of the plug head with pliers and unthread, hopefully

Fred

I have a Burnham also. There are those who don't like a small skim port but I gotta tell you, if you skim very slowly (like you should do anyway) they work fine. What I did was take the Pressure relief valve off, replace that elbow with a 3/4" Tee, remounted the PRV on the top of the tee and use the opening on the end of the to skim with. When I'm done skimming, I put a 3/4" plug in it (with several wraps of teflon tape so that it is easy to remove when needed) and the job is done. I have skimmed a couple ways. In both cases, I heat the boiler water up to about boiling. The first way is to use a bucket and let the water trickle out of that opening and into the bucket. The second way is to set the trickle like you want it, put a garden hose on it and run it over to a floor drain and let it trickle for several hours. I have even let it go over night. The flow is so slow that, even in the morning, the boiler water is still warm. You can add a 3/4" nipple on the tee so that the garden hose screws on.
My Burnham is 33 years old and it simply did not have a port suitable for a skim port. In any case, it works and you do what you have to do. I mean the only time you will use it is when you add/change some piping and need a skim. "I'm just sayin".
Let the bickering begin....

JUGHNE

IIRC there was a posting by IceSailor about drilling out plugs with a holesaw that is smaller than the OD of the plug. (remember that the plug is tapered and avoid the threads with saw).
Might be hard to do is there is not a good flat center punch location left.
This would allow the jacket to be left on.
Slow speed with cutting oil applied might be good.

With the main core of plug gone then the remaining ring of threads could be carefully cut with saw blade and the chisel would finish it out. FWIW

adambnyc

What a PIA. Hard fought win

ChrisJ

adambnyc said:

What a PIA. Hard fought win

Are those grooves cut into the threads?

JUGHNE

I have done that on a radiator and thought.... damn!....the HO just had this blasted and painted and I'm screwing it up!

But Monster Blue tape and heavy pipe dope got me thru it without a drip.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

I have done that on a radiator and thought.... damn!....the HO just had this blasted and painted and I'm screwing it up!

But Monster Blue tape and heavy pipe dope got me thru it without a drip.

My first thought was, it's only a skim tapping, some black RTV, or any color RTV and I bet it'd seal forever.

I believe Gerry Gill use blacK RTV as thread sealant on all of his steam piping just to see if it'd work.

adambnyc

Those grooves look much worse in the picture than they actually are. I caught the threads on the inside a bit. I still have about 6 or 7 threads on the outside. I blue taped it up and ran a test this evening. All good.

adambnyc

On to the next issue. Boiler is not firing now. Not sure what happened. I unplugged the auto feed and the wire that goes from the vent damper to some kinda jumper near the boiler and also unplugged a wire from the electronic starter. After I put the sides back on the boiler and plugged everything back in, no joy.

The boiler "clicks" at the relay and then does nothing. Any ideas? Thanks!

adambnyc

Fixed! I pulled a wire out of a wirenut when moving things around. All good now

adambnyc

Continuing on this. So now that the boiler has had a decent chance to fire and after observing performance, I'm pretty sure I need to redo my piping again. I'm still getting wet steam, even after the dual stage burner. I can only guess that the boiler being so oversized and the piping being a RTFM min of 2" is causing the steam velocity to be too high.

I'm thinking I'm going to repipe in 4" but wanted some thoughts on this. Also, I was thinking about going 36" or even 48" from the top of the boiler. I have 9' ceilings so no problem there. is there a min/max recommended height from steamhead to mains? I'd rather have longer piping from boiler to header than header to mains. I think the boiler water is jumping higher than the 24" I'm using right now.

Fred

You may be drawing conclusions about the problem that may not be correct. May be wise to start at the beginning again.
- What makes you believe you have wet steam?
- Post pictures of the current/finished piping around the boiler.
- While a 2" header is the minimum Burnham says is acceptable and a 3" would have been nice, it is an acceptable minimum.
- Did you do a very slow skim like we suggested? It usually takes multiple very slow skims to get all the oils out.
- What do you have your Pressuretrol Cut-in and Cut-out set at?
- Have you taken the Pressuretrol off of the pigtail and made sure the pigtail is clean and not plugged with gunk?
- Do you have a good quality 0-3 PSI gauge on the boiler so you can see what the boiler is actually doing? Often the Pressuretrol may need to be re-calabrated.
- Do you have enough Main venting on the system?
- What kind of vents do you have on the radiator? If they are venting too fast, they can spit water. Also, are you sure the radiators are properly pitched? Pitched the wrong way will also cause water to spit out of the vents.

adambnyc

Will try and answer the questions in order. I believe that I still have wet steam because I heard water sloshing noises coming from my rads. They aren't spitting water quite yet, but I anitipate that they might. This leads me to believe I'm getting wet steam.

I've done a few skims, just not extremely slowly. I've washed out the boiler completely with the Gerry gill wand. I've added steam clean additive, I've drained it again, cleaned again with wand.

I've got a good dual stage gas burner setup, done by a great guy local to these forums. I have a 0-3 gauge as part of that setup. I have a vaporstat and pressuretrol. System is set to downfire at .5 and cut out at 1.

I have two mains vented by Big mouth vents. All vents on all rads were replaced with maid o mists in the same size as was always on them. Rads are definitely pitched in correct way as verified by my level and the shims I used to pitch them all.

All the rads in the house do get hot btw. It's that annoying sloshing sound that's killing me.

Oh, and pigtails are clean

Fred

What size supply lines feed those radiators? Are they too small to feed steam and allow condensate to run out of the rads at the same time? Are the supply tappings on the radiators bushed down more than typical? May require a little more pitch on the radiators. Have the supply valves been replaced with some HD cheapos that may not open internally like they need to? Is the sloshing occurring on all the rads or just one or two? Sorry for so many questions but the more info we have, the more likely someone here can identify the issue.
Still need to see the finished boiler install/re-pipe.

adambnyc

Ask all the questions you need! Greatly appreciate the help. Piping in the house overall is on the small side. Mains are 1 1/2" which step down to 1 1/4", and then step down again to 1" feeding the rads. All rads are 1" at the valve. I had given some thought about piping not being large enough for water to flow out. House is built in 1926, and this is how a dead man did it. If the answer is the piping was never right to start with then I'm going to have to explore other options.

Some valves have been replaced, but have been replaced with quality valves from the supply house.

I'd say that 3 of 6 rads in the house make that noise.

adambnyc

Picture coming tomorrow am

adambnyc

Current piping shots

Paul S_3

Nice job @adambnyc .... those big mouths are really nice

Danny Scully

Improved header! That big mouth in the 5th picture is on a very short "main". Maybe consider Pete's VariVent?

adambnyc

Improved header, but maybe not correct yet Danny. I'm still getting what I think is wet steam (read above) and I'm thinking I might have to repipe in 3" or 4". Fred was helping and was gonna give me his thoughts, welcome everyone's insight into the possible issues.

What would be the benefit of the varivent over the big mouth?

Thanks!

adambnyc

Also for the "short main". I've seen a lot of pictures of the return being vented, like it is on my other main instead of just the end of the steam feed.

Should I move the venting? What's the benefit if any.

Thanks!

Fred

Refresh my memory. Is this a one pipe system? If so, 1" feed will only support about 25 EDR, which is a relatively small radiator. What size are the radiators that are sloshing? Do you hear the sloshing on start-up of a heating cycle or after the boiler has run for a while? What kind of vents do you have on those radiators? I'm wondering, as an experiment, if you slow the venting down significantly (less steam getting into the radiator, hence less condensate) if the sloshing goes away?? From your Pics, I don't think your issue is the near boiler piping. It looks good and should be fine.