Another oversized steam boiler question

ChrisJ

pm124 said:

Weird is good. I bought his other book The Lost Art of Steam.

I have The Lost Art of Steam Heat, Greening Steam, and then I got bored and bought Pumping Away and Classic Hydronics even though I don't have hot water heat.

No one writes a book like @Dan Holohan
Wish he'd do one on Ductless Minisplit systems.



And get it completed before the spring 2017.
Hint, hint, hint.

pm124

Can't wait to meet EzzyT! But it is still bugging me that I cannot figure out how to estimate the EDR. I have 2 column radiators that are 26" high. The number of sections in each radiator is: 10, 13, 6, 8, 8, 8. At 26", one would estimate an EDR of 141.5. While not written perfectly, the PDF I found suggests that this is then multiplied by 240 BTU, but that only comes out to 33,962 BTU.

10 26.7
13 34.71
6 16.02
8 21.36
8 21.36
8 21.36
53 141.51 33962.4

Paul48

How many sq/ft is the house?

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

pm124 said:

Can't wait to meet EzzyT! But it is still bugging me that I cannot figure out how to estimate the EDR. I have 2 column radiators that are 26" high. The number of sections in each radiator is: 10, 13, 6, 8, 8, 8. At 26", one would estimate an EDR of 141.5. While not written perfectly, the PDF I found suggests that this is then multiplied by 240 BTU, but that only comes out to 33,962 BTU.

10 26.7
13 34.71
6 16.02
8 21.36
8 21.36
8 21.36
53 141.51 33962.4

You did the calculations correctly.

The contractor should have installed an EG-30 and even that boiler is too large for the very small heatloss that you have.

I would force him to change the boiler.

Is there any way to get him to remove all of his stuff (boiler, piping etc) and not pay him a dime because you're going with another contractor due to his display of complete incompetence?

Fred

Calculating the required BTU's, you need to add another 20% to 30% for piping and Pick-up. 20% is likely sufficient, in your case, especially if the piping is insulated. That still would only bring you to somewhere around 40, 000 to 42,000 BTU's

EzzyT

I just left the homeowner and discussed all the details with them on what needs to be done. The total EDR is 263 square feet, the boiler is way over sized just like some have mentioned.
I will be presenting the homeowner a propsal to install a properly sized boiler, upgrade the steam main venting and the radiator venting.

pm124

Ezzy is awesome. Super knowledgeable. In my ignorance, I misidentified the radiators. They are 3 column, not 2. The calculations came in at 263, so the proper BTU with insulated pipes is 100,000.

Fred

pm124 said:

Ezzy is awesome. Super knowledgeable. In my ignorance, I misidentified the radiators. They are 3 column, not 2. The calculations came in at 263, so the proper BTU with insulated pipes is 100,000.

You'll love his work and you can rest assured it will be right, this time.

Steamhead

Agreed.

pm124

By the way, I found a before picture. I see what you mean by the 3" riser

pm124

Bought and read(ing) Greening Steam as well. About half-way through.

pm124

Thanks again everyone. Found the section stating 2 1/2" minimum.

JohnNY

Was this boiler replacement filed with the NYC Dept of Buildings? You can't touch gas pipe anymore without filing. The DoB has gotten insane about this since the explosion on 2nd Ave.

pm124

The contractor said he pulled the permits, but no inspector or anything every showed up as far as I know. Anyway, the boss came in this morning very apologetic and promised to make everything right even though I had already paid the full amount (well, my father in law paid the full amount). I assume even if the homeowner is told that the permits were pulled, it is still the homeowner's liability. So, that part hasn't been worked out yet. I'm assuming that if the permits were not pulled, they will fine me twice the cost of the permit? Hopefully, the contractor will pay that, too. At any rate, this is the upside of Yelp. The downside is that it only reflects how nice contractors are, not how competent they are!

Fred

If he pulled permits, he should be able to show it to you and you should have an inspection tag hung somewhere at or near the boiler, maybe on the gas line. Based on how this boiler was installed, I'm not sure I'd let them try to "make it right" . They clearly don't know what they are doing and/or don't care. They now have the "upper Hand" in this situation. If you decide to give them a chance to correct this mess, You need to learn as much as you can, as quickly as you can, study the I/O manual to make sure you know how it should be installed, watch them like a hawk and post pictures here as they tear it out and re-install so people can tell you right away when something isn't right. Are they going to replace that over sized boiler as part of "making it right"?

SWEI

The homeowner or may not be on the hook to pay for a permit, but I assure you the licensing agency will act if you report an unpermitted job to them.

pm124

Thanks so much. This forum is amazing. I read the greening of steam this weekend, and the installation manual. They will put in a 100,000 BTU unit and install this unit in the home of another customer. I agreed to pay additional $$ for dual 2.5" risers and a 3" header that is offset, possibly with a drop header. But as an amateur, the little things could get me. All I have is that book and the install manual, which doesn't have a lot of detail in it. For instance, I read that the Hartford loop has to be 2" below the water line, but I don't understand why and there are probably 20-30 similar things I will not know. Also the wiring is a mystery. I hired Ezzy once and will hire him again to do a final inspection. Can I pull this off? Or should I just pay Ezzy to do the install? And if I do hire Ezzy, what do I do about the fines if they didn't pull?

pm124

Great. Thanks much. So 2 1/2" single riser and 3" drop header it is. I will replace all the vents and try to balance the system after the install at my own expense. I will definitely post pictures! (And look for that tag.)

pm124

Will do 24" from the top of the boiler.

Interestingly, the manual states that the riser should be on the same side as the controls. However, doing so limits the length of the header.

JohnNY

Fred said:

If he pulled permits, he should be able to show it to you and you should have an inspection tag hung somewhere at or near the boiler, maybe on the gas line.

NYC doesn't do the "tag" thing. It's all on file in the system.

pm124

Ah, that explains why there is no tag. JohnNY, what are the owner's fines if they didn't pull? Can I remedy it?

pm124

So, here is a strange enigma. Weil-McLain's steam out estimates don't seem to line up nicely with the BTU out. http://www.weil-mclain.com/products/eg-gas-boiler

I don't know whether I need an EG35 or an EG40. The EDR is 263 before pick up. There is a bit of extra piping, so a pick up of 1.3-1.5 seems safer. That gives me a BTU out of way under 100,000, so an EG35 should be appropriate. However, that machine only puts out 258 SQFT of steam. So, by this measure the EG40 is more appropriate. And, in fact, we are getting into the territory of the current boiler if we add some EDR to the system.

ChrisJ

pm124 said:

So, here is a strange enigma. Weil-McLain's steam out estimates don't seem to line up nicely with the BTU out. http://www.weil-mclain.com/products/eg-gas-boiler

I don't know whether I need an EG35 or an EG40. The EDR is 263 before pick up. There is a bit of extra piping, so a pick up of 1.3-1.5 seems safer. That gives me a BTU out of way under 100,000, so an EG35 should be appropriate. However, that machine only puts out 258 SQFT of steam. So, by this measure the EG40 is more appropriate. And, in fact, we are getting into the territory of the current boiler if we add some EDR to the system.

You have 63,120 btu/h worth of radiation.
call it 84,000 with the common 33% pickup factor which I'm personally against.

EG-30 is what I'd use if it was my house and I'd spend time adjusting venting and insulating the hell out of all of the piping to make it work and it would work, I guarantee it. Your house's heatloss is far below 63K right?

EG-35 is the proper boiler by common standards. This is what most guys would install and it'll work beautifully and will be easier to balance than an EG-30. This is the boiler you want.

EG-40 is wasteful. It's going to build pressure too fast and cause hissing vents no matter what you do. Don't do it.

EG-50 is full retard. Never go full retard.

KC_Jones

The rating on those boilers already subtracts/accounts for a pickup factor. A little extra piping shouldn't warrant increasing that. I would go for the 35 if it was my house. To get into the territory of the current boiler you would have to close to double the size of your current system. Are you planning a major addition to more than double the size of your house? Remember in an addition scenario with modern insulation and windows the steam rads would be tiny compared to what you currently have. The existing would have been sized with no insulation and is some cases to heat with the windows open. The tiny bit of undersize the 35 would be shouldn't be an issue at all. Just make sure the whole system is in good working order. That is a much bigger factor in performance than the boiler size. You need proper and adequate main venting and proper radiator venting.

Fred

As has been said, The EG-35 is the right boiler to use. The installation is also critical.

pm124

Got it! Thanks!!

jonny88

Ezzy was there so I am at a loss as to why you are still asking questions.I am sure you got a full explanation of what needed to be done.Bite the bullet and hire a steam guy such as Ezzy,you will be back in the winter saying you made the right choice.Best of luck.

ChrisJ

jonny88 said:

Ezzy was there so I am at a loss as to why you are still asking questions.I am sure you got a full explanation of what needed to be done.Bite the bullet and hire a steam guy such as Ezzy,you will be back in the winter saying you made the right choice.Best of luck.

Nothing wrong with asking questions.

Fred

He's asking questions because he's trying to give the original installer a chance to make things right, including replacing the over-sized boiler. The installer has already been paid, in full, so, if he's hoping to recoup some of the costs, he needs to learn as much and as fast as he can to watch the re-install.

pm124

Fred is right. I hired Ezzy and planned on having him do the install. Remarkably, the original contractor came back and said he would make it all right. I assume the contractor will simply take this boiler and put it in a different customers house. I was shocked. I'm going to pay Ezzy to come back for a final inspection but need to supervise and instruct. The guy seems genuinely really nice. But there is always the guy who seems really nice and then halfway through the job ...

pm124

Hi Everyone. So, he is coming on Friday to do a swap. I'm pretty confident that I now understand how it should be piped. Skim port, king and return valve, large riser, larger header. I'm also relatively OK with the valves that should all be replaced throughout the house. The only main questions for piping are: 1) whether to use dope or tape, and 2) whether the Hartford loop and return are properly configured here. The main thing I'm worried about is wiring, which I have no clue about. Here are some pics.

pm124

As you can see, there is an exposed wire. Even if it is DC, I'm not happy.

ChrisJ

It's a ground and goes to the boiler cabinet I believe.
It's hard to see in that mess, but the return configuration looks ok.

As far as dope or tape, most guys here use Megaloc dope and bluemonster tape together. First 3 wraps of tape, and then a shmear of dope over the tape.

But you could ask 10 different people what they use for thread sealant and you'll get at least 5 different answers.

KC_Jones

Honestly given what the rest of the install looks like this wiring doesn't surprise me. It's sloppy and you are correct to be unhappy. If you are hiring a professional they should be that a professional. The wires should be secured, at least an attempt to secure them and run them in a neat and orderly fashion. It also appears they neglected to hook up a wire, as I see a green fork terminal that isn't connected to anything. I have the same brand boiler and I am pretty sure they say to hook up all the grounds?! Also it is all 24V AC in there. The switch on the side should have a transformer on the inside of the cabinet and that steps everything down to 24V AC.

Fred

The Hartford loop/return piping looks OK. When he rewires the replacement boiler, tell him you want the wires untangled and cable tied in a nice neat bundle, along their way to their terminations.

pm124

Thank you so so so much. This is so amazingly helpful.

pm124

He is a no show. Looked him up. No license, no registered business, no permits pulled. Also pays no taxes. I think all of these things can get someone into serious trouble. I'm not going to go there. Best to just let it go. Waiting to hear back from Ezzy.