At crossroad with a Burnham V8

t_lee05

In 2013 I purchased a 100 yr old home (1600 sq ft) that was equipped with a Burnham V8 oil fired boiler for steam heat. The unit also heats my domestic hot water and was installed in March 2005. Prior to me buying the home, the unit was not properly maintained.
In 2015, I was advised that I needed a new oil tank at the cost of $1600. During that time, I started researching on switching to natural gas by converting the existing burner from oil to gas at a cost of $2200. That was the route I chose to go. At the time of install, I was advised that the coil that heats domestic hot water was starting to leak due to mineral build up. I was not financially prepared at that time to replace the coil.
Fast forward to now, the leak has become more prominent now that the boiler is off cycling due to not having heat on. I called the tech in who advised that I should consider installing a gas hot water heater and bypass the boiler for the domestic water all together. Then he could attempt to remove the coil and put a plate over it. He advised that it would be very labor intensive and if removing any of the steel bolts stripped the cast iron threads that it would render the existing boiler junk.
I'm ok with the idea of installing a gas hot water heater, but my logic tells me to opt for new boiler install over trying to repair the Burnham. Reason why, having a bolt strip and the boiler is useless anyway which still leaves me on the hook to pay for the labor costs in addition to the boiler install costs.
Do I opt for the repair and try to see if it can be fixed or shop for a new boiler? If a new boiler, what's a good natural gas steam boiler? What is the cost range of a new steam boiler?
Being a first time homeowner, this has certainly taught me some costly lessons.....

STEAM DOCTOR

Replace the boiler because a bolt snaps?!? Ridiculous. Snapped bolts can be removed. Not easy but definitely doable.

GreenGene

That should have been fixed a long time ago.

I've done a lot of those, all you need is a good tap&die set and bolt remover kit.

Here's the thing, Burnham had a bad run with those boilers cracking sections, if it's older I'd suggest staying with steam, go with a Weil Mclain and indirect water heater, this is going to cost over 5k, however if you put the money into the Burnham and a section cracks as they are known to do, all that money is lost.

There is no way to predict the future but I lost faith in Burnham long ago.

If you had a Carlin EZ gas installed they should be able to just get you a Weil McLain block and reuse that burner.

Burnham does have a new block and it looks better than before, but I can't say for sure if I'd go with them, if anyone has more experience with the newer blocks, chime in.

t_lee05

can the threads be re-threaded if it's a cast iron block?
I've had a Burnham hot water boiler before and it ran like a champ. This boiler is just 11yrs old.

Sailah

I don't know how that boiler is plumbed, I'm far from an expert in that regard. But what I do know quite a lot about is cast iron and stuck bolts.

Based on what I can see, from a machining perspective, if those bolts are out in the open like that, there is no way that is stopping me. I'll get those bolts out of there no matter what.

My first weapon before I put a wrench on any bolt that is suspect is heat. Get a MAPP gas torch and torch that bolt head hot, say 500+ degrees. Do all 6. Let them cool. Do it again. Time is your friend. This heating and cooling breaks the corrosion bond between bolt and cast iron.

Buy a can of Kroil. Yes it's expensive. So is a new boiler. After a few sessions of heating, apply Kroil as best you can to the bolt threads. It'll wick in. Apply when the bolt is still pretty warm but not burn yourself warm.

I would put a wrench on it after a week of heating/cooling and numerous Kroil applications. Much better is an impact wrench if you have one. The shock loads work great at breaking bond too.

So after all this, you may still snap a bolt head or 2. Or all 6. Maybe none. Hey life isn't fair right? Keep doing the heat and Kroil thing for another week on any bolt stubs left.

When a bolt head shears off and the plate is removed quite often the tension is relieved on the bolt and you can grab the shank with real vise grips and twist it out.

If you snap off a bolt, it's really just another round of tricks to get it out and a couple tools. Hell even if I couldn't get the bolt out, I can probably drill and tap a new hole just to put a block off plate on it.

But if a tech is saying scrap the boiler because he can't remove a stuck bolt, I wouldn't have a lot of faith in his other abilities. He probably does know how to remove the bolt but just wants to sell you a new boiler.

I've removed more frozen bolts than I can remember and Kroil is without equal in my humble opinion

https://www.amazon.com/Kano-Aerokroil-Penetrating-aerosol-AEROKROIL/dp/B000F09CEA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1468951049&sr=8-2&keywords=kano+kroil+penetrating+oil

Sailah

One more tip I have is to ever so slightly tighten the bolt before trying to loosen it. And I mean just a wee bit. I don't know why this works sometimes but it does.

ChrisJ

I had someone tell me I needed a new radiator because the threads were stripped for the 1/8" steam vent. Later on I ran an 1/8" tap in it deeper and it's good as new.

Didn't even have to drill it out to 1/4" and bush it.


Either, he didn't have an 1/8" tap, or he wanted to profit on a new radiator. Take your pick.

spoon22

The coil can be replaced if you remove it yourself it is worth it . The question is, is it worth paying someone 4 hours plus the cost of a coil ?to sink that money into a v8 that may or may not have have one of burnahm casting issues is a gamble. If it works and the boiler lasts it is worth it if it doesn't work that money is wasted and would be better spent on a down payment for a new boiler.

t_lee05

Thanks everyone for the input!! This is all considerations that I need to think about.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

t_lee05 said:

Thanks everyone for the input!! This is all considerations that I need to think about.

One additional point to consider before you attempt any removal of the coil:

All of the aforementioned recommendations regarding removal presume that you actually have some cap screws (NOT BOLTS) that can be removed. Two of the cap screws are currently effectively non-existent due to the complete corrosion of the heads. Therefore, a more difficult task is at hand as you'll need to remove the remainder of the cap screw without the benefit of the head. All doable by the right individual..............but can easily turn into a train wreck in the wrong hands.

This is the definition of a train wreck: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Seriously Hat?
Can you prove to us that those are not hex bolts? I don't see anything indicating otherwise.







For the OP :
http://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/faqs/hex-bolts-vs-hex-cap-screws/

Fred

Having replaced a gasket on my Burnham, under the plate where the coil is installed (I don't have a coil in my boiler) I can verify they are hex bolts.

ChrisJ

For some strange reason @Hatterasguy assumed Burnham spent a little extra and used the proper hardware.

GreenGene

Now is the time to try it, it's warm out.

The real unfortunate thing is no one uses anti seize, if they did we wouldn't be having this conversation, use it tech's on everything, it's take 5 minutes to pop the bolts on a new boiler and coat them, use it on your LWCO's too, even the gaskets faces, they will peel and you will never scrap again.

One of your bolts heads is gone.

The boilers come apart easier when they are hot ( expanded) rather than stone.

I've found wacking a bolt head dead on with a hammer helps wake them up and free them.

One thing I have done, because you usually snap at least one bolt, is center punch the broken stud and carefully drill it out for the removal tool ( easy out) until I feel it enter the cavity behind the bottom of the bolt, key word - carefully.

Then I insert the extension nozzle of Kroil and fill it, this can really help loosen the stud and drilling it heats it up.

If still ng I drill it out and tap it, prior to drilling I measure the depth and then put electrical tape on the drill bit at that height so I can see when I'm deep enough because if you go too deep you will be in the water jacket and the decision will have been made for you.

Robert O'Brien

The wild card is the expected life of a V8 steam boiler.

t_lee05

Given the fact that the boiler was never properly maintained prior to my owning the home, I'm leaning towards having a new boiler installed.

How are Weil McClain systems? Does anyone still recommend Burnham?

I know from this point going forward that once replaced, the unit will be kept in proper maintenance.

ChrisJ

Doesn't matter what brand of boiler you buy, the most important thing is how it's installed and treated.

Properly piped with all good radiator vents and no leaking packing nuts, losing a reasonable amount of water per month with proper water treatment any brand of boiler will last fine.

I personally replaced a V8 steamer that rotted out twice in 8 years (before I owned the house) with a Weil McClain EG series (natural gas). I run water treatment and keep my system tight. After 5 years the boiler is like new.

As far as what a reasonable amount of water to expect to use, it depends on the system and how cold it gets out. I can't remember now, but I believe my 392sqft system uses only a few gallons per year. If you're losing gallons per month you need to fix something.

t_lee05

Omg Chris, that leads me into another topic. Now I'm wondering if the radiators are properly sized for the house....

t_lee05

I should restate, properly sized for the rooms in the house

ChrisJ

Mine aren't, they're all grossly oversized for the rooms.

Doesn't matter, as long as the rooms heat evenly it's fine.
If 1 or 2 rooms overheat, use TRVs on those radiators.

The important thing, is that the boiler be properly matched to those radiators.

t_lee05

I need to do the calculations on the radiators. Can the radiators be undersized?

ChrisJ

I wish mine were, slightly.
But undersized to what extent?

You need to do a heatloss on every room and see how they match up and even then you may be off.


Personally, I'd prefer slightly undersized to slightly oversized. It would just mean the house may be on the chilly size on the rare occasion that it got into the extremes outside. Instead, my system is oversized 365 a year every year. It wouldn't be a perfect match until -30F which will never happen in my area, our record low is -19 and that only happened once. Design temp is in the single digits, like +5F.

Fred

That boiler is eleven years old. If you install a separate gas water heater and take that coil out of the boiler/replace the plate and bolts, you might spend $20.00 or $30.00 for the bolts and plate and may get another several years out of that boiler. I wouldn't tear it out unless I was sure it is leaking. You will only be out a couple hours getting the old bolts out and a few dollars, on the boiler. A separate hot water heater is probably a better option anyway.
I have a 33 year old Burnham and it's still going strong. The first 8 years, before I bought the house, it too was neglected. Clean it up, check for any leaks, keep the system well maintained and get whatever life is left in that boiler.

Steamhead

If you can't switch to gas, the Burnham MegaSteam would get my vote. The V8 series was problematic, but they hit a home run with the MegaSteam.

t_lee05

Yup, I had already switched to gas exchanging the burner on the Burnham to gas.

Robert O'Brien

ChrisJ said:

Doesn't matter what brand of boiler you buy, the most important thing is how it's installed and treat.

Almost always,almost.

GreenGene

couple of points to ponder

1- brand does matter and personally I've never had an issue with a Weil McLain block, once bitten twice shy.

I would agree the mega steam seems better, still once bitten twice shy as I've never gone back to HB Smith either.

The lesson there is for the corporate bean counters and others that say at the meeting "sir, I have a way to increase profit...." if it involves thinning your blocks or cheapening your steel, etc etc, think twice, you didn't save any money or increase profit, you took a hit, a well deserved one.

Not a big fan of separate water heaters when I have a boiler but depends on the application and btu's, if the boiler is much larger in btu's than h/w would demand, yeah, if they are close no, I go with indirect and set to priority.

ChrisJ

GreenGene said:

couple of points to ponder

1- brand does matter and personally I've never had an issue with a Weil McLain block, once bitten twice shy.

I would agree the mega steam seems better, still once bitten twice shy as I've never gone back to HB Smith either.

The lesson there is for the corporate bean counters and others that say at the meeting "sir, I have a way to increase profit...." if it involves thinning your blocks or cheapening your steel, etc etc, think twice, you didn't save any money or increase profit, you took a hit, a well deserved one.

Not a big fan of separate water heaters when I have a boiler but depends on the application and btu's, if the boiler is much larger in btu's than h/w would demand, yeah, if they are close no, I go with indirect and set to priority.

Perfect example,
@GreenGene says he's never had a problem with WM and yet @Steamhead will show you 30 pictures of WM steamers that rotted out prematurely.

Some guys here like Burnham, some like Smith, some like WM.
In the end, it's all the same. I seem to recall quite a few here that absolutely swear by HB Smith and yet @GreenGene seems to think they're awful.

Robert O'Brien I believe likes Buderus, and perhaps if they start making a steamer that may actually matter in this discussion.


All steamers available, at least for residential are pretty much the same. They will all fail very fast if mistreated and it's highly doubtful that you will get any sympathy from the manufacturer.

The only one that is kind of unique is the Megasteam because it's a triple pass design similar to the really old boilers that hold up incredibly well.

In the end, use whatever the contractor wants to install as long as it's properly sized and properly piped. Guys like to use the brand they're used to, or, can easily get and it really doesn't matter to the end user.

SWEI

ChrisJ said:

I seem to recall quite a few here that absolutely swear by HB Smith and yet @GreenGene seems to think they're awful.
...
The only one that is kind of unique is the Megasteam because it's a triple pass design similar to the really old boilers that hold up incredibly well.

The Smith Series 8 was a wet base triple pass design,one of few which was approved for use with a gas gun. The current 8HE is something else entirely, based on a Peerless block IIRC.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

GreenGene said:

couple of points to ponder

1- brand does matter and personally I've never had an issue with a Weil McLain block, once bitten twice shy.

I would agree the mega steam seems better, still once bitten twice shy as I've never gone back to HB Smith either.

The lesson there is for the corporate bean counters and others that say at the meeting "sir, I have a way to increase profit...." if it involves thinning your blocks or cheapening your steel, etc etc, think twice, you didn't save any money or increase profit, you took a hit, a well deserved one.

Not a big fan of separate water heaters when I have a boiler but depends on the application and btu's, if the boiler is much larger in btu's than h/w would demand, yeah, if they are close no, I go with indirect and set to priority.

Perfect example,
@GreenGene says he's never had a problem with WM and yet @Steamhead will show you 30 pictures of WM steamers that rotted out prematurely.

Some guys here like Burnham, some like Smith, some like WM.
In the end, it's all the same. I seem to recall quite a few here that absolutely swear by HB Smith and yet @GreenGene seems to think they're awful.

Robert O'Brien I believe likes Buderus, and perhaps if they start making a steamer that may actually matter in this discussion.


All steamers available, at least for residential are pretty much the same. They will all fail very fast if mistreated and it's highly doubtful that you will get any sympathy from the manufacturer.

The only one that is kind of unique is the Megasteam because it's a triple pass design similar to the really old boilers that hold up incredibly well.

In the end, use whatever the contractor wants to install as long as it's properly sized and properly piped. Guys like to use the brand they're used to, or, can easily get and it really doesn't matter to the end user.

You're making a conclusion with no basis in fact.

Simply because a steam boiler fails due to excessive water use does not allow you to conclude that all manufacturers make the same boiler.

They MIGHT make the same boiler but a certain conclusion can only be obtained if their products are tested side by side over 20 years with minimal water input over that time.

Since such a test is virtually impossible to obtain, all we have is anecdotal evidence. If one brand of steam boiler fails at a rate of 3X-4X its competitor, you really cannot claim "excessive water use" as the culprit as both manufacturers presumably have suffered similar "excessive water use".

What would be valuable is a steam boiler that failed prematurely with the capability of knowing for certain that the boiler had little makeup water during the period of use.

You're also making a conclusion with no basis in fact.


Show me your evidence that I'm wrong.

In my opinion steamers are failing due to lack of water treatment.

I've yet to observe any brand or model boiler fail more then any other on here. As far as V8 VS any other, we've seen plenty of rotted Burnham IN series and WM EG series. More than V8s as far as this forum is concerned.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

GreenGene said:

couple of points to ponder

1- brand does matter and personally I've never had an issue with a Weil McLain block, once bitten twice shy.

I would agree the mega steam seems better, still once bitten twice shy as I've never gone back to HB Smith either.

The lesson there is for the corporate bean counters and others that say at the meeting "sir, I have a way to increase profit...." if it involves thinning your blocks or cheapening your steel, etc etc, think twice, you didn't save any money or increase profit, you took a hit, a well deserved one.

Not a big fan of separate water heaters when I have a boiler but depends on the application and btu's, if the boiler is much larger in btu's than h/w would demand, yeah, if they are close no, I go with indirect and set to priority.

Perfect example,
@GreenGene says he's never had a problem with WM and yet @Steamhead will show you 30 pictures of WM steamers that rotted out prematurely.

Some guys here like Burnham, some like Smith, some like WM.
In the end, it's all the same. I seem to recall quite a few here that absolutely swear by HB Smith and yet @GreenGene seems to think they're awful.

Robert O'Brien I believe likes Buderus, and perhaps if they start making a steamer that may actually matter in this discussion.


All steamers available, at least for residential are pretty much the same. They will all fail very fast if mistreated and it's highly doubtful that you will get any sympathy from the manufacturer.

The only one that is kind of unique is the Megasteam because it's a triple pass design similar to the really old boilers that hold up incredibly well.

In the end, use whatever the contractor wants to install as long as it's properly sized and properly piped. Guys like to use the brand they're used to, or, can easily get and it really doesn't matter to the end user.

You're making a conclusion with no basis in fact.

Simply because a steam boiler fails due to excessive water use does not allow you to conclude that all manufacturers make the same boiler.

They MIGHT make the same boiler but a certain conclusion can only be obtained if their products are tested side by side over 20 years with minimal water input over that time.

Since such a test is virtually impossible to obtain, all we have is anecdotal evidence. If one brand of steam boiler fails at a rate of 3X-4X its competitor, you really cannot claim "excessive water use" as the culprit as both manufacturers presumably have suffered similar "excessive water use".

What would be valuable is a steam boiler that failed prematurely with the capability of knowing for certain that the boiler had little makeup water during the period of use.

You're also making a conclusion with no basis in fact.


Show me your evidence that I'm wrong.

In my opinion steamers are failing due to lack of water treatment.

I've yet to observe any brand or model boiler fail more then any other on here. As far as V8 VS any other, we've seen plenty of rotted Burnham IN series and WM EG series. More than V8s as far as this forum is concerned.

I didn't make any conclusion.

I suspect that all steam boilers are not identical. The capability of the various manufacturers to have a mutual discussion on casting thickness and cast iron manufacturing techniques simply is not present.

Therefore, you have the variable of the manufactured product and you have the variable of the use of the product in service.

You've dismissed the variable of the manufactured product from the equation and have effectively called them identical.

That's most likely factually incorrect.

Let's be realistic. Your're observations on the forum are hardly sufficient to make a conclusion.

It's all I've got and you're in the same exact boat.
I stand by what I said before, in my opinion they're all the same.

I am allowed that opinion, and I am allowed to share that opinion with other members.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

It's all I've got and you're in the same exact boat.
I stand by what I said before, in my opinion they're all the same.

I am allowed that opinion, and I am allowed to share that opinion with other members.

Actually not.

I'm certain that the various manufacturers employ varying techniques and materials for their products. There is no possibility of them being identical. Some still use the old castings from years ago and some have "modernized" the product.

Naturally, we cannot know which are superior without taking one completely apart, sectioning the casting, and performing an metallurgical analysis on the cast iron.

Then we would know.


Sadly, this is no different than most products on the market. The manufacturers rely on marketing to sell the product. You can never get sufficient specifications for a proper engineering evaluation.

It's similar to buying a pickup truck. Think Ford and Chevy are "identical"? Definitely not. But, we'll likely never know the differences as their service life will generally have a more profound effect than the design.

Not sure if you're being a (fill in blank) regarding the word "identical" or not.

As far as the overall performance and longevity of the product, I can say Ford and Chevy are extremely similar. If you buy either product and use them similarly you can have the same expectations of both.

GreenGene

What I've seen is Burnhams CRACKING or splitting at the seams of the sand casting of the cast iron, due to thinning the cast to make them lighter, not rot.

This was not just V's it was also commercial boilers, which we would change a section, then came the other surprise, the new sections don't always line up with the old ones by 1/16th of an inch, they claim because the old machining was off.

HB Smiths had a bad run of rubber gasket-ed boilers such as the FD12 and the follow up and quite honestly I got tired of changing the blocks, hauling them up and down stairs and facing customers, many of whom said "I don't want another one of those"

This is a good lesson against monopolies because we need choice and competition, the companies I worked for will not return to a company after the fact ever, the manufacturers can learn and retool or whatever and gain some back and stay in business, that is capitalism at it's finest, but my bosses were done and I learned from that.

ChrisJ

GreenGene said:

What I've seen is Burnhams CRACKING or splitting at the seams of the sand casting of the cast iron, due to thinning the cast to make them lighter, not rot.

This was not just V's it was also commercial boilers, which we would change a section, then came the other surprise, the new sections don't always line up with the old ones by 1/16th of an inch, they claim because the old machining was off.

HB Smiths had a bad run of rubber gasket-ed boilers such as the FD12 and the follow up and quite honestly I got tired of changing the blocks, hauling them up and down stairs and facing customers, many of whom said "I don't want another one of those"

This is a good lesson against monopolies because we need choice and competition, the companies I worked for will not return to a company after the fact ever, the manufacturers can learn and retool or whatever and gain some back and stay in business, that is capitalism at it's finest, but my bosses were done and I learned from that.

I certainly hope Burnham actually honored the warranty on those?

GreenGene

Some were over, generally that wasn't my job, still honoring a warranty doesn't cover all costs for the consumer or contractor, like with HB Smith, they were giving us blocks, too many unhappy customers is the issue.

When I was a factory rep I had to be the messenger because I had limits, I think I had $500 residential and $1200 commercial at my discretion, when I had to go over it was generally no or something ridiculous.

example: Brand new furnace, issue with a secondary h/e, I wanted to give them a furnace, our cost a few hundred, happy contractor, happy homeowner, oh no, we have to give them a secondary and a few hours labor and have them disassemble the entire unit = unhappy contractor, unhappy homeowner who will tell everyone plus the contractor will no longer buy our equipment.

My theory was always it's better to make people happy so we keep selling and increase selling than tick them off.

GreenGene

Let me give you guys a scenario of real bad management.

Company I worked for for a very short time as an installation manager, they contracted exclusively with this one supply house. Their driver drops off the wrong equipment at a home at 8:30AM while my guys are inside removing the old boiler without checking with them.

It is the wrong boiler.

They call me, I call the supply house and explain the situation, the store manager's response is " I don't have another truck going that way today".

You can guess my response.

Trouble was because my company made a poor deal they knew I had no recourse which explains his attitude.

I still made waves and got a hold of his management and made clear that this was unacceptable and I would apply pressure so he loses the contract and I got my boiler but I shouldn't have to do that, the store manager should have replied "I'll get the right one to you ASAP if I have to drive it there myself".

GreenGene

Hatterasguy said:

GreenGene said:

My theory was always it's better to make people happy so we keep selling and increase selling than tick them off.

The theory of the manufacturers is to give $500. maximum credit on a new unit and let the chips fall where they may. If the customer NEVER buys one of their boilers again............no biggie..........a customer generally buys once per lifetime and the boiler isn't usually sold directly to the customer anyway.

Nice approach (looking for the blow lunch icon).

if that is what they are thinking they are stupid, we the contractors were buying them sometimes on a daily basis, it is we they should be thinking about

Steamhead

SWEI said:

ChrisJ said:

I seem to recall quite a few here that absolutely swear by HB Smith and yet @GreenGene seems to think they're awful.
...
The only one that is kind of unique is the Megasteam because it's a triple pass design similar to the really old boilers that hold up incredibly well.

The Smith Series 8 was a wet base triple pass design, one of few which was approved for use with a gas gun. The current 8HE is something else entirely, based on a Peerless block IIRC.

Actually, the 8 was a pinner, but one of the heaviest pinners I've seen. And of course they stopped making that block. The current 8 is a rebranded Peerless.

SWEI

Thanks, Frank.

I was shopping for a client about the time they dropped the Series 8. They ended up selling the building before we got to re-work the system.

t_lee05

Hi all,

Just to let you know that I've ordered the can of Kroil Oil. I'm still on fence about how to proceed but I feel a lot more knowledgable with the information that you all have supplied me with.

I did get @Steamhead's info but I also am getting another tech's opinion.

The service manager came out to look at boiler and he thinks the best option is to replace the coil. This all in part because I only converted to natural gas 7 months ago and spent that $$ to have it done.

But before the attempt is made, I'll need to "prep" the bolts as suggested by using the Kroil oil and heating up the heads of the bolts.

I think he was impressed that as a female, I was armed with information on possible solutions. I even did my IBR calculations and compared that to the existing boiler to ensure that I had a properly sized boiler and even researched new models if needed.

Thank you all again and will keep you all posted as I progress.

t_lee05

I had a 2nd company come in and give me their opinion. They took the stance of @Hatterasguy suggestion and felt that the boiler has good life left in it yet. Especially since I paid the money for the conversion only a short time ago...

I'm not so stressed now and just wanted to say thank you all!!! I'm looking forward to reading the steam books I've ordered so that I'm more informed.

Harvey Ramer

Hopefully once you have the plate off, you won't find the corrosion so deep on the machined face of the block that it's hard to make a new seal.