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Full Renovation - Installing new oil fired boiler and indirect water heater

LadyEKentLadyEKent Member Posts: 6
Hi All I'm new here,

So here is my deal,

We completely gutted a home and are renovating everything. It will be getting all new Anderson 400 series windows, all new spray foam insulation, will have 2 wood stoves, and we will be using flat panel wall radiators, the home is roughly 2500 sq ft.
I am doing my darnedest to keep from oversizing the boiler too much, yet every company I speak to wants me to put 100-120k btu worth of boiler into the house which I feel is excessive.

I don't intend on putting more than 45k worth of radiators into the house, I see no need for it. I told the most recent heating company that I would like to install the smallest of the Burnham MPO IQ series oil boilers, but they still came back saying that I need at least 100k of BTU. With the 45k worth of radiators and the indirect water heater (stainless, likely 40-50 gal, I think they suggested Super Stor), do i really need more than the MPO IQ 84? Or am I screwing myself with too little radiation? I appreciate any advice on this matter.

Comments

  • HatterasguyHatterasguy Member Posts: 6,058
    You really need LESS than the MPO IQ 84 but Burnham doesn't make one (and neither does anyone else effectively).

    Every company that sells oil will always start with 100K even if they have to heat an outhouse. Ignore them. They shouldn't even be in this business.
  • LadyEKentLadyEKent Member Posts: 6
    Yeah Ive been researching for over a month at this point and from what I can tell, you are right in me needing less than the IQ 84. I guess my real concern is if I need to add more radiation to keep up with that boiler or if it will be fine with just the 45k worth of radiations and indirect water heater.
  • HatterasguyHatterasguy Member Posts: 6,058
    That conclusion can only be made if you know the heatloss of the building on the coldest day of the year.

    If the heatloss is 45K, you might consider a bit of a margin.

    If you are going to get right to the edge, you'd need to layout the radiation room by room with the required heatloss done carefully room by room.

    Additional radiation will generally allow the boiler to operate at a lower temperature and it will lose less energy to its environment in that situation (presuming the boiler is in unconditioned space).
  • LadyEKentLadyEKent Member Posts: 6
    For heatloss, is there an easy way to do a calculation? The home is in the Manchester NH USA area
  • HatterasguyHatterasguy Member Posts: 6,058
    Well, there is no "easy" way. Quite a few assumptions need to be made regarding insulation in the walls and the resulting R value. Additionally, the air leakage into the house is a real crapshoot, however it can represent 30% of the heatloss value.

    You did note that you will be using two wood stoves. These can provide significant heat to the building although it's typically a bit unbalanced.

    If you incorporate the wood stove(s) capability into the mix, I don't see how you could possibly go wrong with 45K of radiation unless you distribute it in error.

    Note, however, that you might get tired of requiring the use of wood and could consider a bit more radiation if the house requires it (because the boiler is fully capable of supporting it).
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited July 2016
    It all starts with a room-by-room heat loss. From that comes radiator sizing, pipe sizing, and boiler/controls decisions.

    If you are not planning on using TRVs, I would suggest putting the room(s) with the woodstoves on a separate zone (or zones.)

    There are a few smaller (70k) oil-fired boilers available from other makers. What are your oil and LPG prices like there?
  • GreenGeneGreenGene Member Posts: 290
    If you're half decent with a computer you can use this, go to the info tab and pick the options that best match the house and temperatures, then go to the input and put in each room, all the windows and exterior doors for each room and eventually below your cool and heat load numbers will add up.

    You'll probably end in the 65-80k range.
  • LadyEKentLadyEKent Member Posts: 6
    edited July 2016
    GreenGene said:

    If you're half decent with a computer you can use this, go to the info tab and pick the options that best match the house and temperatures, then go to the input and put in each room, all the windows and exterior doors for each room and eventually below your cool and heat load numbers will add up.

    You'll probably end in the 65-80k range.


    when calculating the floor area/floor edge in this program, what exactly is the difference between the two


    NEVERMIND
  • LadyEKentLadyEKent Member Posts: 6
    SWEI said:

    It all starts with a room-by-room heat loss. From that comes radiator sizing, pipe sizing, and boiler/controls decisions.

    If you are not planning on using TRVs, I would suggest putting the room(s) with the woodstoves on a separate zone (or zones.)

    There are a few smaller (70k) oil-fired boilers available from other makers. What are your oil and LPG prices like there?

    I hadnt considered putting the room with wood stoves on a seperate zone, seeing as they are both on the first floor and with a mostly open floor plan (basically one large room with a bathroom and office), the first floor will have its own zone.

    Oil is 1.98 and Proprane is 2.52
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    The idea is to shut off the heat to rooms as they are heated by the wood stove. If the heat makes its way into other rooms, the thermostat for those areas will shut down the boiler. TRVs will give you even finer-grained control over the system.

    At that price, keep the oil.
  • LadyEKentLadyEKent Member Posts: 6
    So basically if I can convince the husband to insulate the floor of the 1st floor/ceiling of basement, the btu heat loss will be less than 58k
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,489
    A concern I see is where does the make up air for the 2 wood stoves come from. With a house you hope will be as tight as you are paying for, there is not a lot of air infiltration for combustion air for the stoves that will move a lot of air up their chimneys.

    I know of a house spray foamed in the 70's that cannot use the fireplace (I know it is a big air mover...more so than a stove) and run the clothes dryer at the same time. Smoke down the chimney.

    You have to consider that a clothes dryer, bath and kitchen exhaust fans require a lot of air coming into the house. Sometimes it finds that air by pulling in down your chimneys.

    That 70's house always had oil burner sooting problems until a combustion air pipe was brought directly into the furnace cabinet from the well ventilated attic space.

    Your basement if unfinished may have enough combustion air for an oil burner boiler.......but 2 wood stoves upstairs.....it may be too tight. IMO
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Combustion air is a big deal. A barometric damper can work wonders for a woodstove.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,489
    That damper could be for the basement/boiler space and if the basement area is fairly sealed from the upstairs wood stoves, they may not benefit from it.
    I have cut in a fairly large floor grill behind wood stoves to get air from the unfinished basement or crawl space.

    Some wood burners have combustion air provisions included....always a good idea. IMO
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    I was thinking along the lines of a Field Controls MAS.

  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,489
    Is there ductwork in the house?
  • Harvey RamerHarvey Ramer Member Posts: 1,968
    You can go smaller with a Burnham LE series oil. They can also be down fired, with the proper baffles of course. They are high efficiency, as oil boilers go. They do need protection against condensation and the are more noisy than the mpo. They are a sweet little boiler though.


    Just make sure you have a spin on oil filter installed on a small boiler like that. It will save you a ton of grief.
    Ramer Mechanical
    ramermechanical.com
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • kcoppkcopp Member Posts: 2,818
    edited July 2016
    I would look into QHT products. They have both 3 pass oil boilers and panel rads. The N. American stocking dealer in out of portsmouth and Bell Simons on Holt Ave in Manchester stocks them.
    I am in the Seacoast so its a bit out of my way...
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