Not enough seats?

Robert O'Brien

Or too many asses? There are way too many manufacturers chasing a stagnant boiler market. What happens?

Docfletcher

I've noticed the same phenomenon in the high end audio manufactures... Just sayin.

BobC

The high end always attracts people looking to make a killing, the trick is selecting someone who will be around down the road when the damn thing breaks. That's why I buy old high end audio gear and rebuild it myself. Parts for good designs can always be found.

Bob

Robert O'Brien

Hatterasguy said:

You get bumped off the plane?

Do you get a free ticket?


Seriously, I really cannot understand why there are so many of them competing in a race to the bottom for a tiny fraction of the overall market for heating products.

And yet the price war is on! Not enough room in the market for 35+ mod/ cons. The only growth in mod/cons comes at the expense of CI, so I understand the CI manufacturers not watching their market disappear but I can't understand new M/C only players entering from abroad. There is going to be a huge shakeout at some point.

Robert O'Brien

It was a rhetorical comment, I'm familiar with basic economics. It sets up a very interesting scenario, getting to see who survives

Gordy

It's rampid everywhere. Industries prey on the cheap consumer with high hopes of selling many short lived cheap products verses few long lived expensive quality products. With in that concept becomes supplying parts for the cheap products.

Many consumers can't look past the cheap initial investment rear ended by the tallying cost of replacing parts consistently. Where if they would spend the extra upfront dollars their total investment is either the same with out the headache of repair, or less than the cheaper line offers.

Abroad sees the American desires, and plays that market. Cheap...

Gordy

Honestly Robert the cheaper lines may prove to survive, and or drive the quality lines to the cheap level to survive. Sad, but probably prove to be true.

Look at V. Offering the 100 line mod/con. It offers the basic unit with out the bells, and whistles that make the 200 sing, and more expensive.

Steve Minnich

Must we discuss the cost differential between products?

Robert O'Brien

Gordy said:

Honestly Robert the cheaper lines may prove to survive, and or drive the quality lines to the cheap level to survive. Sad, but probably prove to be true.

Look at V. Offering the 100 line mod/con. It offers the basic unit with out the bells, and whistles that make the 200 sing, and more expensive.

The larger manufacturers have all either cut prices or features to compete with a certain Asian manufacturer.

Rich_49

Educated consumers could move the market in a better direction . Better educated rep agency employees could help also . Unfortunately there are only a handful of these entities that do not only look at the bottom line .
I am always amazed when these folks show up on the job to assist by bringing you a replacement part then immediately prove how little they actually know all whilst attempting to sound intelligent . Maybe manufacturers need to as fully as possible teach these guys what it is we do and how it works instead of shoving a bunch of features down their throats to sell to the unwashed , again while hosing us , the market and the buying public .
In the meantime , alot of manufacturers will compete for very few jobs with an ever increasing product line all the while bitching how they cannot or just barely keep the doors open .
Scalability is the key or supply and demand , whichever you choose . The days of the cast iron boiler are numbered , that writing is clearly on the wall . Mod Cons have suffered from bad installs , lack of maintenance , poor education and the never ending lineup of TPRs to get it right . And then there are the never ending discussions and bickering between the likes of us .

Got news for you all , we either fix it , turn in unlicensed installers , canvass our government to get rid of some of the nonsensical restrictions on what we can install where . Educate the larger cities that you may not need a piece of equipment with an H Stamp for heating that requires 120* water @ design or we'll all be looking at ugly white boxes high on the wall with an asian name . Some of you whom have no interest in speaking up except to defend your old school , kiss your old friends **** ways , may want to step back and let others take over the task . I'll give you a few reasons why what we do is so hard to sell ,

A
Substantial
Monetary or Always Sometimes Maybe Except
Exchange


Another AFUE is derived from these , good luck achieving
Stupid it in the customers house for a reasonable price .
Test
Method

Authority
Having
Jurisdiction
Is not your local inspector but the adopted model code in force at present . These guys think they are the law and most have not a clue about what they are supposed to enforce . You have a license as does he , stand up for yourself when you're right . Funny thing is that when you continually make the inspector look foolish , they learn or retire . If you continually do what he says through fear he'/ll always break your balls you'll be nothing but a serf and he will remain stupid . Don't get me wrong , there are inspectors who do know quite alot , I apologize to all 12 dozen of them for this rant .

Brace yourself also for the codes that get by most , like IECC . Very soon this will be enforced and mandated . When it does you better know how to make that mod con work right and go down to a 1000 or less BTUh . The whole game is changing and dinosaurs go extinct . The 2300 sf , 10000BTUh house is right around the corner . Oh , and you'll have to zone it or else the West and South facing rooms will overheat or the North rooms will be cold Goldilocks .

Good discussion Robert . There are enough seats if we help out and do our part . I am not too hopeful though because for it to be done , some folks will have to be offended . Those who do the offending will be censored by the friends of the special snowflakes and we will have this discussion in the old folks home when all the white boxes are high on the wall with the Asian names on them

Robert O'Brien

Hatterasguy said:

Look at the HTP UFT versus the EFT,

Be real interesting to see if the EFT survives at a cost of over $1K above the UFT. That will tell you if a contractor can sell the features of the EFT.

If the cheaper one works and has acceptable reliability, I can tell you the answer.