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Wanted - Need a plumber in Long Island to install Burnham ES2-5 boiler and Indirect

AKP5
AKP5 Member Posts: 17
edited April 2016 in Gas Heating
Hi,

I live in Mineola, NY. I currently have a burnham oil combi boiler V73 series and a 250g oil tank. I already have existing gas service to the house and the gas line is 5ft away from the current boiler for the gas clothes dryer. I would like to replace my current boiler with a gas boiler which I already purchased from Blackman plumbing brand new. The boiler I purchased is a Burnham ES2-5. I already moved the boiler to the basement. I will need an indirect HWH. For the indirect, I would like to go with Techtanium. I can either purchase it or you can include it in your quote. I currently have a 1 zone monoflow setup with five convectors on the 1st floor and three cast iron rads on the 2nd floor. I will need 3 zones, 1 zone for the 1st and 2nd floor, 1 zone for the HWH, and 1 zone for the future basement when finished. I have already installed the manufacturer recommended stainless steel liner. There is no urgency since the boiler is currently working but has a minor leak.

Already Done
-Purchased new Burnham gas fired ES2-5
-Moved it to the basement
-Installed required chimney liner
-Already have existing gas service

Work Requested
-Remove and discard current oil boiler and oil tank
-Install Burnham ES2-5 boiler
-Purchase and Install Techtanium HWH 40g-50g
-3 zones (1 zone for 1st floor and 2nd floor, 1 zone for HWH, 1 zone for future basement)

Budget
$2500 including Techtanium Indirect HWH


Please let me know if you are interested and if you would like to come onsite for an estimate.

Thank you.



«1

Comments

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,369
    Rule #1. We don't discuss pricing.
    How did you determine which boiler you need?
    Are you sure that current gas piping coming from street is adequately sized?
    Are you sure that gas meter is adequately sized?
    I am sure that you realize that heating and plumbing companies are "for profit" businesses. The indirect costs a good bit of money. Three zones means more than a few fittings, zone valves, other materials etc. High priced installations are not necessarily high quality. Low priced installationa are almost always low quality. You will be paying for the low quality install for many years to come.
    Why are you replacing the current boiler? If funds are an issue,you might be best off leaving the current boiler in place.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    I had a heat/loss calc done to determine the boiler i need. Yes the gas piping is sufficient after thorough research. Yes the meter is adequately sized. I am replacing the current boiler due to a slight leak. I am aware heating and plumbing companies are for profit and there is room for profit to be made, perhaps not to your specific expectations.
  • AMG63
    AMG63 Member Posts: 15
    Let me know how that works out for you...LOL
    Robert O'Brien
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,980
    If you get someone in there for that price you're not going to like what you get.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Robert O'Brien
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    When a licensed contractor installs equipment, they are putting their license, their liability insurance, and their reputation on the line. You will likely have trouble finding someone to 'bid' the work you have described. You *might* be able to find someone willing to work on a time & materials basis, especially if you properly indemnify them from much of the liability.

    BTW, was the chimney liner permitted and inspected?
    Robert O'Brien
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,390
    edited April 2016
    :)
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    edited April 2016
    The chimney liner was permitted and inspected. In fact, a contractor that contacted me for an onsite visit whom is on this forum (I won't mention any names :smile: )contacted the building dept of my village stating i was installing it myself and the building dept. was nice enough to recommend someone for the chimney liner install.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    edited April 2016

    Also, the ES2-5 with an output of 118K can heat a small apartment building. Unless this house is 4500 square feet, the boiler is going to short cycle itself to death.

    Now, what was that line that Steamhead always uses for such people?

    I think you missed the part when I wrote "i had a heat/loss calc done".
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    AMG63 said:

    Let me know how that works out for you...LOL

    Will do.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    edited April 2016
    SWEI said:

    When a licensed contractor installs equipment, they are putting their license, their liability insurance, and their reputation on the line. You will likely have trouble finding someone to 'bid' the work you have described. You *might* be able to find someone willing to work on a time & materials basis, especially if you properly indemnify them from much of the liability.

    BTW, was the chimney liner permitted and inspected?

    The chimney liner was permitted and inspected. In fact, a contractor that contacted me for an onsite visit, whom is on this forum (I won't mention any names :smile: )contacted the building dept of my village stating i was installing it myself and the building dept. was nice enough to recommend someone for the chimney liner install.
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    AKP5 said:

    Also, the ES2-5 with an output of 118K can heat a small apartment building. Unless this house is 4500 square feet, the boiler is going to short cycle itself to death.

    Now, what was that line that Steamhead always uses for such people?

    I think you missed the part when I wrote "i had a heat/loss calc done".
    Who did the heat loss? Stevie Wonder? The heat loss on your house is probably 30,000 btu's at best.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    edited April 2016
    R Mannino said:

    AKP5 said:

    Also, the ES2-5 with an output of 118K can heat a small apartment building. Unless this house is 4500 square feet, the boiler is going to short cycle itself to death.

    Now, what was that line that Steamhead always uses for such people?

    I think you missed the part when I wrote "i had a heat/loss calc done".
    Who did the heat loss? Stevie Wonder? The heat loss on your house is probably 30,000 btu's at best.
    It would have been great if you did your own heat loss when you came by for a quote however you didn't bother to look at how many rads I had. I followed the advice on the forum and majority of plumbers emphasize the importance of a contractor doing a heat loss before suggesting a boiler. I paid to have a thorough heat loss done. Coincidentally enough his first name was Steve.
    Rich_49
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,231
    What size is the house? Tell us the sq ft, what level of insulation, etc.

    You want to get the boiler sizing right so you get what you expect.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    30,000 not a btu more
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    I am trying to help you. To keep you from putting that OVERSIZED piece of cast iron in your basement. Buy the smallest boiler you can find.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,980
    There's no point in doing a heatloss on a house that clearly needs less than the smallest boiler made.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    ChrisJ said:

    There's no point in doing a heatloss on a house that clearly needs less than the smallest boiler made.

    Yet we have problems clearing this hurdle everyday!
    SWEIHatterasguy
  • FranklinD
    FranklinD Member Posts: 399
    edited April 2016
    My house is about 2600 sq feet...I have a Burnham ESC4 (78000 btu) and a design temp of -19*f...and it's still WAY oversized. I did a heat loss, as did two of the contractors that bid on my installation...we all came up with around 65k. It's more like 50k tops.

    Also: on a hot water system, measuring the rads has nothing to do with the sizing of the boiler. That would be for a steam boiler.

    Another also: the btu's required for the indirect do not get added to the needed boiler output. I heard a couple contractors make that mistake when quoting my replacement...this is why most manufacturers include 'domestic priority' in their controls.
    Ford Master Technician, "Tinkerer of Terror"
    Police & Fire Equipment Lead Mechanic, NW WI
    Lover of Old Homes & Gravity Hot Water Systems
    Robert O'Brien
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    To the OP. You are going about this the wrong way.
    And that's all I'm going to say about that.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,863
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Robert O'Brien
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 830
    edited April 2016
    I hope it does not sound rude, but looks like day laborers could be the right fit for the job. Probably posting on handyman site will be more productive?
    Robert O'BrienKC_Jones
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,841
    AKP5 said:

    It would have been great if you did your own heat loss when you came by for a quote however you didn't bother to look at how many rads I had. I followed the advice on the forum and majority of plumbers emphasize the importance of a contractor doing a heat loss before suggesting a boiler. I paid to have a thorough heat loss done. Coincidentally enough his first name was Steve.

    What does that have to do with doing a heat loss? The connected radiation has nothing to do with it. That could influence system design in the final system, but heat loss is strictly about the envelope the system is going in. If that is a picture of your house there is no way you need a boiler that big, that is clear even without a heat loss. If you paid for a heat loss that indicated you needed a boiler that large, you flushed money down the drain.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,980
    edited April 2016
    The actual heatloss on my 150 year old 1600sqft house with original windows, no insulation and balloon framed walls is only around 60,000 btu/h on design day and my area is quite a bit colder than Long Island. I think we average 4-6F colder. So far the most I saw was something like 70,000 btu/h when it was -8F out and that's quite a bit below design day.

    This includes piping losses into ice cold crawl spaces as well as losses through the floor as my kitchen floor drops below 40F on days like that.

    Even for my house, I'd expect a 60,000 - 65,000 btu hot water boiler to be used or whatever is closest.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Robert O'Brien
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    I really appreciate everyone's input regarding my heat loss. I already paid for it and feel the engineer did an extremely thorough job. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. He diligently took the time to do an accurate heat loss by examining every detail and then gave me several design options. He measured everything from the windows, the walls, to the number of fins on my convectors, the numbers of columns on my cast iron rads, used some sort of laser to check the levels of argon gas in between the double sided windows and doors and etc. Those are just some of the small things he did. The quotes I received drastically varied and I must say every licensed plumber would completely disagree with almost any bids i received from one another. Its strange how one plumber would completely bash another plumber. Either the other person was oversizing, or under sizing, or the brand was horrible etc.... It can drive a homeowner crazy when having to decide. Anyhow, I finally decided on the boiler and purchased it. Bottom line is I need someone for the install. I am slightly flexible with my budget. If anyone has any downtime at any point and is interested, let me know....including the plumber that reported me. If the price is reasonable we can work it out. Thanks again.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,980
    I'm not a plumber, so I guess I'm free to bash anyone I want.


    @Hatterasguy we saw a picture of the house and regardless I think this is a lost cause.

    He's got his boiler, he had his "engineer" and nothing we say will change his mind so we should just agree that energy standards need to be updated.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    KC_Jones said:

    AKP5 said:

    It would have been great if you did your own heat loss when you came by for a quote however you didn't bother to look at how many rads I had. I followed the advice on the forum and majority of plumbers emphasize the importance of a contractor doing a heat loss before suggesting a boiler. I paid to have a thorough heat loss done. Coincidentally enough his first name was Steve.

    What does that have to do with doing a heat loss? The connected radiation has nothing to do with it. That could influence system design in the final system, but heat loss is strictly about the envelope the system is going in. If that is a picture of your house there is no way you need a boiler that big, that is clear even without a heat loss. If you paid for a heat loss that indicated you needed a boiler that large, you flushed money down the drain.
    That is in fact a photo of the house in question.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    Why is everyone so heated :) (get it)? With all due respect, in this specific post, i don't recall asking anyone for a heat loss or their opinion. Like i said, each plumber will contradict one another. You guys seem to have a lot of down time. How about you install my boiler and make some money rather than wasting time bashing the engineer who did the heat loss or the boiler i chose to buy. The boiler is already purchased..end of story. I appreciate the input but there is nothing i can do about it now. Whats up with the bullying? There is no reason to attack me for the route i decided to choose. If my boiler is oversized than so be it. We are all grown men, there is really absolutely no need to be rude.
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    There is no money to be made, that's the point. There are so many additional components and material that will be needed to complete your installation. When my employer tables a price that is not a random number, it is commensurate to work involved. Who is going to purchase these items?

    1. Domestic mixing valve
    2. Air scoop
    3. Additional circulators or zone valves for zoning
    4. Zone control if you go with circs
    5. Copper pipe
    6. Copper fittings
    7. Black Pipe
    8. Black pipe fittings
    9. Smoke pipe
    10. Wire and assoc fittings
    11. Sawzall blades for oil tank removal
    12. Floor protection
    13. Wireless thermostat or did you pull wire to 2nd floor?
    14. Material to knock off 2nd zone (house is currently one zone)
    15. Who is hauling away the old boiler and oil tank?
    16. Is the new boiler in the basement already or am I supposed to hump that down the stairs too?
    17. Building Permit

    There are really too many to list them all.

    You get the drift, right?

    Gotta go, installation going on today (actual paying customer).

    Ron
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,512
    Have you considered putting a new gas burner into your present boiler as a start?
    When new boiler time comes in the future, the burner could be moved to the new boiler.
    This would certainly come in below your budget.--NBC
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17

    Have you considered putting a new gas burner into your present boiler as a start?
    When new boiler time comes in the future, the burner could be moved to the new boiler.
    This would certainly come in below your budget.--NBC

    I thought about that however the problem is that the middle section has a slight leak so converting to a gas burner wouldn't resolve the issue. Prior to the leak i was considering swapping to a Beckit.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    R Mannino said:

    There is no money to be made, that's the point. There are so many additional components and material that will be needed to complete your installation. When my employer tables a price that is not a random number, it is commensurate to work involved. Who is going to purchase these items?

    1. Domestic mixing valve
    2. Air scoop
    3. Additional circulators or zone valves for zoning
    4. Zone control if you go with circs
    5. Copper pipe
    6. Copper fittings
    7. Black Pipe
    8. Black pipe fittings
    9. Smoke pipe
    10. Wire and assoc fittings
    11. Sawzall blades for oil tank removal
    12. Floor protection
    13. Wireless thermostat or did you pull wire to 2nd floor?
    14. Material to knock off 2nd zone (house is currently one zone)
    15. Who is hauling away the old boiler and oil tank?
    16. Is the new boiler in the basement already or am I supposed to hump that down the stairs too?
    17. Building Permit

    There are really too many to list them all.

    You get the drift, right?

    Gotta go, installation going on today (actual paying customer).

    Ron

    I already moved the new boiler to the bsmt. Need a wireless thermostat for 2nd floor. You would have to haul away the old stuff. I'm flexible to 3. I want you to obviously make money. I'm just a bit strapped financially after paying taxes.
  • AKP5
    AKP5 Member Posts: 17
    gennady said:

    I hope it does not sound rude, but looks like day laborers could be the right fit for the job. Probably posting on handyman site will be more productive?

    Thank you. I will do that as well. BTW your work looks phenomenal, i saw your videos on youtube.
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    I'm with Gennady on this one, you may find someone locally on Craigslist possibly that's closer to your price range.
  • Brewbeer
    Brewbeer Member Posts: 616
    edited April 2016
    No self respecting, INSURED, professional contractor would touch this job for the price quoted. Around here, the going rate to remove a basement oil tank is more than half what you want the entire job done for. There is just too much potential liability associated with touching an oil tank to not be appropriately compensated to do this work. If your contractor spills any oil in your house during the work, you are going to need his insurance to fix it.
    Hydronics inspired homeowner with self-designed high efficiency low temperature baseboard system and professionally installed mod-con boiler with indirect DHW. My system design thread: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154385
    System Photo: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/79/451e1f19a1e5b345e0951fbe1ff6ca.jpg
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    A ?.Are you still entitled to the rebates Nat Grid give.I know if you went through their program you would have got in the region of 1k back.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,390
    $545 on an ES25 from Burnham through Nat Grid. $275 for 85% boiler plus $300 for indirect. Need pro installation to qualify
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    Far from pro installation to qualify.Just need to be on the Grid installer plan pay 1k for a territory and bam your off.Yes a Lic is required but I have seen enough installs from pros to go on a wall of shame.Also he would have got 100 for ODR plus 25 for each thermostat.His loss.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,390
    Any contractor qualifies not just Value Plus installers.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    Exactly and Value Plus Installers in my opinion are in the same bracket.Just in case homeowners think if a company is affiliated with Nat Grid it is far from the truth.Grid do not vet contractors or inspect installations.Just a word of caution to the homeowner as Grid do paint a pretty pic.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,390
    It's not that hard competing against Value Plus, they all quote the same Burnham. Makes it easier to differentiate yourself
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.