Asthma Attacks from New Steam Boiler, please help...

asthma

Hello All,
I am the 40 yr old daughter in our Connecticut house. 70 yr old mom in house has bad asthma.
History:
weather cold snap 6 weeks ago killed the old rock-steady steam boiler.
it had a failed low water shut off and the thing overheated and all pipes may have overheated too for 3 hrs middle of the night.
4 weeks ago, a new peerless (sp?) boiler upgrade was put in by "very good" professional installers. everything brought up to code since last one went in 30 yrs ago.
radiator steam immediately smelled like caustic chemicals, driving mom to hotel and next stop hospital.
all of our urgent calls to installer led to new knowledge that SQUICK was added to new system.
Google says that Sodium Sulfite (squick) is known to give WOMEN ASTHMA!
Installers have done 6 full water changes of boiler, cold and hot water coming out, and all radiator vents have been replaced.
The chemcial smell of "new furnace parts" should have burned off wihtin days, not months, right?
The smell we smell is NOT eggs, not sealant, not cutting oil, i checked all of those out.
We ONLY smell the smell when boiler turns on and then smell happens also a few min later when boiler turns off and radiators cool down. As soon as the steam vents are not pressurized, bam. nasty chemical smell puffs out again.
A water change "solution" only lasts 4 days before we smell it again.
All of the water changes later, i smell it maybe 90% less, but with mom, any hint drives her to hotel and steroids to get her lungs back. Just the last time, we smelled "metal pipe smell" for the first time since the whole ordeal began.
I had fire dept out to check for volatiles and CO, they found nothing. CO monitors in house find nothing. I even put a CO monitor on worst radiator to look for any weird back drafting. I'm desperate! I am here because in your archives a similar/identical story was discussed in 2012 here. No resolution was mentioned though.

Question:
what else could be offgassing with/thru/along with the steam?
i have been present for every wash out and the brown water that comes out has NO bad smell to it! it just smells like rusty pipes and we've been living with that for 30 years, no problem.
All dust was LONG ago removed from all radiators. It's not that. If you put your fingers on steam vents and smell the water that accumulates on your fingers, it's the nasty smell.

What I am I missing here ??!???
How many water changes (which i hear are a stress to the system) must we have done?
With our old foolproof boiler, i had to drain brown water weekly. Should i continue to remove that as SKIM or blow down, for the next 20 years?

This week, we have been turning Tstat way down to 50 and sleeping with space heaters. We have left boiler switched ON to heat the house water.
As long as boiler is switched ON, mom can smell the smell. I ran experiemnts switching boiler OFF and not telling mom, and those nights, she says smell is gone! So what all could it be producing in backdrafted air or pushing air thru radiators? or what all? How would just heating water be causing noxious fumes and of what kind?

6 weeks ago, I literally did not know what a boiler was. what all i have written here, ive just learned about from this 24/7 emergency. we are living with open windows, air purification, room RH vaporizers, clean smellless space heaters, and my mom is still complainging of air that is so "caustic it feels like i'm breathing sand." i get the same experience, but less than her.
What should i do/check for/hire someone in for NEXT?
I explained this all to Air testing experts in the county and they said they'd "have no idea what to test for but sulfer gases" Back to square 1. No one seems able to help us and i have reached out to 6+ different professionals...

Thank you for any help in our emergency.
Also, I am happy to hire ANYONE in CT who can help solve this...
Casey

nicholas bonham-carter

At the finish of every new boiler/piping installation, a procedure known as "skimming" (do a search here) is specified by the manufacturer's instructions. this is a lengthy, although simple process, whereby the oils remaining on top of the boiler water are very slowly washed off the top through a boiler port, plumbed especially for that purpose. Draining and refilling the boiler will NOT work for this, and neither will adding Squick, which is diatomacious earth.
Have your installer show you how to do it, and post pictures of your boiler and its piping, so we can see if there are any piping problems which may be throwing too much water up into the pipes, with the steam.--NBC

Fred

I suspect you may want to take a look at having the radiators disconnected and taken outside and hosed out. With any steam boiler there is always a little condensate that remains in the bottom of each radiator and I suspect some of the steam may have vaporized and carried a bit of the chemical into the radiators and every time the vents open, and the end of a heating cycle, you are smelling some of that residue. I am sure it will continue to diminish over time but it sounds like you can't wait for that to happen.

JUGHNE

Has anyone ever back flushed a SP CI radiator thru the vent hole? Sounds crazy I know.....but if the cleaner has settled in the reservoir in the lower portion of the rad and get re-cooked every time the steam comes as Fred suggested then rather than lug all the CI outside I would try. I maybe would drill out the 1/8 to 1/4 or even 3/8" if enough CI meat was available on the boss. Then run water thru at a slow pace. Assure that the rad had good slope to the valve. Waste this water from the wet return to the floor drain not into the boiler. Could try in Mom's room first???
Top skimming is still on the to do list though.

asthma

You guys are amazing... thank you for offering so much thought and so quickly! I am stuck at work but will send photos as soon as i can...sometime in the next 12 hrs, light depending...
to NBC: top skimming is what we/installer has been doing and he added plumbing so that i can do too. He taught me (sort of) and will teach me more next time, says he. I will post pics for you ASAP.
to Fred: good idea. i have been really wanting to do this. But local plumbers say they dont want to touch the job cus it's installers responsibility. Seriously? How come "stepping on toes" trumps a medical crisis? I am not handy enough to rip out radiators. I am TRYING to find a plumber to help...
to Hatterasguy: can you explain these two either/or's a little more to me using small words? I didnt follow this part... "The test is designed to determine whether the problem is emanating from the radiator or emanating from the boiler itself whereby there is a draft problem that has gone unnoticed."
after a 180 degree vent rotaion, if x happens... then it's... and if Y happens, then it's... can you fill in those blanks for me?
to Jughne: what is a SP Cl? I think your idea is $%^&* brilliant... I want to do this !!!
will send photos, and you all are sooo appreciated here, I cannot thank you all enough...
if anyone has animal behavior problems, any species, i'll pay you back in free advice off board! behavior is my job.
Casey

JUGHNE

Single Pipe Cast Iron (radiators)...........how about teenage grandchildren .....just kidding.

asthma

LOL, no kids here! At 40, i'm the youngest one around : )
Thank you for additional explanations. And photos are attached. Hopefully lit enough, flash wouldnt go. We have been top skimming from the yellow port/spigot/thingy.
Casey
hmmm, i'm trying to attach the photos.... didn't post? is there a trick?, i hit "attach a file" and added three photos.

asthma

2nd try...

Paul S_3

Take some pics a little further away with all the piping

asthma

LOL, no kids here! At 40, i'm the youngest one around : )
Thank you for additional explanations. And photos are attached. Hopefully lit enough, flash wouldnt go. We have been top skimming from the yellow port/spigot/thingy.
Casey
hmmm, i'm trying to attach the photos.... didn't post? is there a trick?, i hit "attach a file" and added 3 photos...

BobC

The files have to be .jpg or .pdf, they should not be huge either.

Bob

Charlie from wmass

When the boiler starts and stops? Has the Chimney been inspected and cleaned?

Charlie from wmass

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/total-dissolved-solids-d_1062.html
I do not mean to be contrary but solids dissolved in the water of a steam boiler stay in the boiler during the heating cycle. It is basic physics. It works similar to an oil refinery in that every thing changes state at it's given boiling point. The chemical in squick does not change to a gas until all the water has boiled off and it is heated to it's boiling point.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/total-dissolved-solids-d_1062.html

I do not mean to be contrary but solids dissolved in the water of a steam boiler stay in the boiler during the heating cycle. It is basic physics. It works similar to an oil refinery in that every thing changes state at it's given boiling point. The chemical in squick does not change to a gas until all the water has boiled off and it is heated to it's boiling point.

Depends.
If it's producing wet steam it will carry stuff with it.

This is why I measure my wet returns dissolved solids. It shows me how dry my steam is even with an overfilled boiler with water treatment.

For example, the boiler water's TDS is usually around 500ppm, but my wet return is between 1 and 2 ppm. That shows very dry steam. To be honest, I don't even know of my tester is accurate down that low so it could actually be 0, or that 1 to 2 ppm could be rust from the radiators.

Charlie from wmass

So you do have very dry steam and you actually proved my point. As you are measuring the dissolved solids after the steam condensed and flowed back to the boiler.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

So you do have very dry steam and you actually proved my point. As you are measuring the dissolved solids after the steam condensed and flowed back to the boiler.

Yes.
We don't know what the OP's situation is though.

Could be a very dirty boiler, or piped poorly, or both.

Charlie from wmass

@ChrisJ I am concerned that this is a case like you had and no one is looking to the Chimney.

asthma

Hello Again, Am I the OP? What does that stand for?
Sorry, I was with plumbers all day, so late to check into the forum : ) Staying in hotel again tonight : (
Chimneys: all new stove pipe got installed on top of new furnace. Chimney above it.... has been inspected by roofers in last 2 years but not cleaned cus they said it was not needed. Town inspecter just ok'd the job of new boiler and said all piping looked text book perfect, whatever that means. if you skim it, you get rusty dirty water coming out, but itnst that normal for 100 yr old radiators? the metallic smell is intense when steam comes on, and then a few days later it turns to a chemical smell, smells like burning plastic. then we change watr again, and problem history just starts over again.
I might have TDS test strip at home (pool stuff) but i can at leaast tell you that pH of boiler water is 8.8, when town water comin in is 6.8
Installer wants to "leave it alone and let it season". We want that too, but smelll is so "caustic/dry" that is burns the back of your sinuses when you sleep in that air. old boiler never ever ever did that. even adding humidifiers to rooms doesnt change the problem in back nasal passages, my cheeks /nosewere even pink after sniffing it. like causing internal inflamation
regarding steam, if i put my hand over steam vents, or towel, or ziplock bag, the steam is wet as rain. what the heck is "dry steam"? just low TDS? please educate me : ) 10 years in water quality and ive never heard that term. sorry !
-Casey (the home owner's 40 yr old daughter)

ChrisJ

Leave it alone and let it season!?

That's a new one on me.

Please post pictures of the piping above and all around the boiler. We need to see how this guy piped the boiler with a comment like that.

Charlie from wmass

Vents should not be expelling steam.

BobC

Does the smell start only when the radiators begin to vent or does it start when the boiler first turns on?

Bob

SWEI

asthma said:

Am I the OP? What does that stand for?

OP = Original Poster

Fred

I suppose the installer could have slopped some pipe dope into the piping when he installed the risers to the Header or to the mains. That may need to "cure" or be flushed away over time. Dry Steam just means that, if the boiler near piping is properly installed and the boiler water is clean, most, if not all the water droplets will fall out of it before the steam enters the mains and flow to the radiators. As Charlie said, steam should not be venting out of the vents. Once steam gets to them they should close. Of course there may be a bit of moisture there before they get hot enough to close. There is a Pressuretrol (typically a grey box) mounted on the boiler, with a pigtail (curled pipe) under it. There is a scale on the front of it. Can you either take a picture of that or tell us what the indicator is set at? May be a long shot but it is possible that the pressure is set too high, compounding the problem.

Mark Eatherton

Just guessing, but I suspect that the installers have the pressure turned way high, which is causing carryover from the steam drum, carrying VOC's with it to the vents. Low volume steam chest, improperly piped, high operating pressures...

I'd first turn it down, then I'd try flooding the upper parts of the system (turn vents upside down to keep them closed and intentionally overfill system to put water into lower parts of radiators), then drain. Rinse and repeat. 3 times should be adequate.

Then re-skim boiler, reset vents, and fill system and see how it reacts.

Conjecture at this point, but we've seen this scenario before.

Tough being displaced like this. Especially on the senior citizen.

ME

ChrisJ

Mark Eatherton said:

Just guessing, but I suspect that the installers have the pressure turned way high, which is causing carryover from the steam drum, carrying VOC's with it to the vents. Low volume steam chest, improperly piped, high operating pressures...

I'd first turn it down, then I'd try flooding the upper parts of the system (turn vents upside down to keep them closed and intentionally overfill system to put water into lower parts of radiators), then drain. Rinse and repeat. 3 times should be adequate.

Then re-skim boiler, reset vents, and fill system and see how it reacts.

Conjecture at this point, but we've seen this scenario before.

Tough being displaced like this. Especially on the senior citizen.

ME

How exactly would water get to the radiators if the air cannot escape because all of the vents are upside down? Seems like an odd idea Mark.

Once we see how the boiler is piped we can make a decision of what needs to be done. Hopefully it's piped well and just needs a good skimming and cleaning.

Steam has an amazing ability to clean radiators and piping without flooding anything or turning vents over.

STEAM DOCTOR

Do not fill the radiators! You can cause the mains to sag. Proper boiler cleaning/skimming is key.

Steamhead

One possible scenario- the boiler may be over-fired.

True story: A few years ago one of the local oil companies called me to look at a problem job with them. It was a Peerless ECT-04 steamer with a Riello burner, and the problem was banging, overheating and screaming vents. The owner swore up and down that had never happened with the old boiler.

The near-boiler piping was OK- met the manufacturer's specs, though I would have done it a bit differently. The water level was OK and didn't appear to bounce a lot. The combustion test results looked OK. The banging was coming from a counterflow branch main.

We started at the beginning and soon found the problem. This was a four-section boiler, but it had been supplied with a burner set up for a five-section unit. The firing rate, and with it the steam output, was therefore too much for the system, and was trapping water in that counterflow main and causing the banging. I had their guys install the correct nozzle for the boiler and re-tune the burner. Problem solved.

I contacted the owner and told him it was the install crew's fault. Why? Because they simply installed and tuned the burner as provided WITHOUT CHECKING TO SEE IF IT WAS THE RIGHT BURNER FOR THE BOILER! He paid us quickly.

Moral of the story: Check EVERYTHING!

Mark Eatherton

ChrisJ said:

Mark Eatherton said:

Just guessing, but I suspect that the installers have the pressure turned way high, which is causing carryover from the steam drum, carrying VOC's with it to the vents. Low volume steam chest, improperly piped, high operating pressures...

I'd first turn it down, then I'd try flooding the upper parts of the system (turn vents upside down to keep them closed and intentionally overfill system to put water into lower parts of radiators), then drain. Rinse and repeat. 3 times should be adequate.

Then re-skim boiler, reset vents, and fill system and see how it reacts.

Conjecture at this point, but we've seen this scenario before.

Tough being displaced like this. Especially on the senior citizen.

ME

How exactly would water get to the radiators if the air cannot escape because all of the vents are upside down? Seems like an odd idea Mark.

Once we see how the boiler is piped we can make a decision of what needs to be done. Hopefully it's piped well and just needs a good skimming and cleaning.

Steam has an amazing ability to clean radiators and piping without flooding anything or turning vents over.

Chris, air is compressible. I don't want to fill the radiator completely, just wet the bottom sections. There are numerous older gravity hot water heating systems out there that depend on this for their compression tank. Don't ask me how I know this, and what happens if you let all the air out, like we normally do...

Steam Doc, if their mains can't withstand that much weight, they've got some serious problems... Proper skimming will address the near boiler piping, but will have zero affect on the near radiator piping, which is where I suspect her problem lies. We're not talking foaming/surgiing here. We're talking chemicals emitting smells and VOC's that are causing health problems.

This is why I'd only recommend cleaning chemicals if absolutely necessary. If you keep cleaning your pipe as you progress by pulling a rag soaked in vinegar through the pipes to remove excess oil during cutting and threading, additional chemical treat shouldn't be necessary, no?

ME

ChrisJ

Mark Eatherton said:

ChrisJ said:

Mark Eatherton said:

Just guessing, but I suspect that the installers have the pressure turned way high, which is causing carryover from the steam drum, carrying VOC's with it to the vents. Low volume steam chest, improperly piped, high operating pressures...

I'd first turn it down, then I'd try flooding the upper parts of the system (turn vents upside down to keep them closed and intentionally overfill system to put water into lower parts of radiators), then drain. Rinse and repeat. 3 times should be adequate.

Then re-skim boiler, reset vents, and fill system and see how it reacts.

Conjecture at this point, but we've seen this scenario before.

Tough being displaced like this. Especially on the senior citizen.

ME

How exactly would water get to the radiators if the air cannot escape because all of the vents are upside down? Seems like an odd idea Mark.

Once we see how the boiler is piped we can make a decision of what needs to be done. Hopefully it's piped well and just needs a good skimming and cleaning.

Steam has an amazing ability to clean radiators and piping without flooding anything or turning vents over.

Chris, air is compressible. I don't want to fill the radiator completely, just wet the bottom sections. There are numerous older gravity hot water heating systems out there that depend on this for their compression tank. Don't ask me how I know this, and what happens if you let all the air out, like we normally do...

Steam Doc, if their mains can't withstand that much weight, they've got some serious problems... Proper skimming will address the near boiler piping, but will have zero affect on the near radiator piping, which is where I suspect her problem lies. We're not talking foaming/surgiing here. We're talking chemicals emitting smells and VOC's that are causing health problems.

This is why I'd only recommend cleaning chemicals if absolutely necessary. If you keep cleaning your pipe as you progress by pulling a rag soaked in vinegar through the pipes to remove excess oil during cutting and threading, additional chemical treat shouldn't be necessary, no?

ME

Mark,

Still going to respectfully disagree.

A steam system is not meant to hold pressure like that. You're asking steam vents, often intended for 2-5 PSI at most, old valve stem seals and threaded joints to withstand substantial pressure as you try to force water into the radiators for no reason at all. This isn't a hot water system.

Should the radiators and piping be able to handle it? Yes, but they often may not and you may cause problems that would have never happened otherwise. The vents are NOT intended for any kind of real pressure and you may cause permanent damage to them.


The steam will clean everything on it's own.

MarkS

I'm curious...

leaving aside concerns about flooding the system with water...

what would water do to help the situation that steam / condensate would not?

Scott M_2

GOing to take a different view.Check the inside of the smoke pipe and boiler and see if someone dropped maybe a plastic 4 way screwdriver or tool that is melting every time boiler is kicking on.Not that I or anyone else here has done it.just a shot in the dark.

Charlie from wmass

I had an old boiler I pulled out and found out that they had left the putty knife behind the last time they cleaned it and cemented the draft hood

STEAM DOCTOR

Try shuting most of the rads and turn on the heat. See if you get the smell. Alternate the on and off rads. If the smell is the same regardless of which rads are on and off,then you probably have a central problem (i.e. the boiler). If the problem smell only exists when particular rads are opem, then the problem is probably local to those rads

ChrisJ

.

STEAM DOCTOR

@Mark. Sags in old gravity systems are inconsequential. Sags in a steam system are the death of the system(until the sags get fixed). Taking hundred or so year old pipes that haven't ever seen more then a few ounces of water at a time and filling them with dozens or hundreds of pounds of water,is playing with fire.

Mark Eatherton

It happens ALL the time... Just saying.

Auto fill valve sticks and system over fills, no?

Just trying to help this poor woman find a simple solution.

ME

Charlie from wmass

I understand trying to get the woman to have a solution I think we are all barking up the wrong tree. I have had people in the past complain about smells from boilers. On installations I did myself it was usually The Cutting oil. Even with wiping it down and everything else sometimes when you get the steam going to smoke off on the pipe. But that smell should be gone in a couple of days tops. I've also been on all the jobs that other people have installed and the smell was actually the exhaust from the boiler and the boiler itself being misfired. But the original thread started with the idea that's quick was giving her mother asthma attacks and my point is that the squid chemical doesn't tend to leave the boiler its purpose in life is to get all of those vocs to settle a sludge in the bottom to be drained out later. It does the woman no good to speculate from 100 miles away without having photos of the installation at least.

vibert_c

This week, we have been turning Tstat way down to 50 and sleeping with space heaters. We have
left boiler switched ON to heat the house water.
As long as boiler is switched ON, mom can smell the smell. I ran experiments switching boiler OFF and not telling mom, and those nights, she says smell is gone! So what all could it be
producing in back drafted air or pushing air thru radiators? or what all? How would just heating water be causing noxious fumes and of what kind?
@asthma
When an immune system has been abused as in this case it takes very little to knock the person over the edge. My 80 yr old mum had a very similar occurrence

Read carefully what is stated here by Casey
..
How is for a synopsis:
Boiler on making steam = problem
Boiler on making hot water only = problem
Boiler off overnight = problem NOT
The emitters should only come into play when there is steam. The problem persists when not making steam, ie making hot water. The commonality between these two events is the burner running.

Fall back to basic analysis, the problem can’t be at the emitters!

Dan’s philosophy, put on your thinking cap “walk around the system” and wonder if something
changed in the fuel supply or delivery during this replacement. It is all in the details!

Is it fired with natural gas, propane or #2 furnace oil?
What is your source of water for the system?

JUGHNE

A long shot here....if there are main vents near the boiler.
Could they "inhale" air from the boiler room at the end of the cycle, hold it in the boiler/piping until the next firing and expel part of it thru the rad vents. Even just DHW firing would cause the air to expand and escape possibly thru rad vents.
If heat was turned down and vents turned upside down and DHW allowed to run as normal. Then see if offending vapors made it upstairs or not. This is similar to Hat's idea, only turn all vents upside down.

Can OP smell this or just Mom?
How tightly is boiler room/basement sealed from living floors?

Steamhead

Casey, you clearly need some professional help with this. Check with Charlie from WMass, he might be near you.

asthma

Hello All, Casey the OP here... I apologize for delays in new photos and answering all of your further posts... I work part time and all hell is breaking loose on the job. I am triaging.
I just now read everything you posted last day and a half...
I will be able to get back on here with details tomorow. I was a "trouble shoot scientist/biologist" for a decade at my last job and in my opinion, this smell that we can ALL smell, not just mom, really really feels like some melting plastic or insulation or something foreign INSIDE the boiler itself or hot piping. It seems like the problem is in the gas part of the steam, and not the water part of the steam. the water (a zillion samples) have ALL smelled FINE to all of us. It's as if there is something burning off and offgassing voc's inside the chamber itself.
when we have access to the air from vents, it smells its worst. just BEFORE pressure builds to shut of vents, and just AFTER pressure reduces and vents open to air again, theat's when the hideous puffs come. i sampled that air with a zip lock collection bag tighly on the vents and brought it to local plumber store and they were grossed out by the smell and turned their heads. I have been WANTING/BEGGING everyone to PEER/look inside the boiler somehow to look for an offending source, like a surgeon leaving a sponge behind or something that may have come loose near burner. it's OIL. oil tank is at other end of basement.
- i will read all of what you all wrote later on, this is as much as i have time to write at work.... i'm burning candle at 5 ends here...
- Casey