What the heck, Viessmann?

hot_rod

At the CMX Expo in Toronto this week. An air handler? Was I hallucinating? Certainly they are not shipping sheetmetal boxes over from Germany? It was top quality.

kcopp

They must figure its a segment of the market they need to get in on or miss out.

Bob Bona_4

Looks like an ECM. But I wouldn't expect any less from V. 

njtommy

Hydroair is growing it just makes sense in a lot of ways.

ChrisJ

njtommy said:

Hydroair is growing it just makes sense in a lot of ways.

Curious what ways?

Steamhead

"Vie$$mann"

njtommy

@ChrisJ You can heat homes and get domestic hot water from 1 appliance for the house. Don't have to worry about bad heat exchangers in the air stream.
Most people want or have AC in their homes so you already an air handler. Very easy to retrofit to existing equipment especially if you have a heat pump and convert to say NG or even propane for second stage.
I find it to be a more comfortable heating source. It allows you to fine tune to lower supply air temps making for longer run times and better for humidifing the space.

Once the boiler is installed you get the same advantages you have with hydronic zoning. Your able to heat other locations like sun rooms garages and basements.

ChrisJ

njtommy said:

@ChrisJ You can heat homes and get domestic hot water from 1 appliance for the house. Don't have to worry about bad heat exchangers.

Most people want or have AC in their homes so you already an air handler. Very easy to retrofit to existing equipment especially if you have a heat pump and convert to say NG or even propane for second stage.

I find it to be a more comfortable heating source. It allows you to fine tune to lower supply air temps making for longer run times and better for humidifing the space.



Once the boiler is installed you get the same advantages you have with hydronic zoning. Your able to heat other locations like sun rooms garages and basements.

Good points.
Though I thought modern higher end (does that exist?) forced air furnaces could modulate air temperatures?

Regarding bad heat exchangers, IMO that's going to exist in everything as long as manufacturers allow it to. The house I grew up in had a 1958 forced air furnace with a cast iron heat exchanger and it was still good in 2006. 48 years old and the ball bearing blower was still like new.

As I've said before, that system is half the reason I hate forced hot air, but at least it was reliable. As far as I know, it failed twice in those 48 years, once from a thermal couple, and once from a bad gas valve. Not a bad record eh?

njtommy

Look at it another way if you have oil heat your not installing an oil furnace in an attic. So installing a oil boiler and running hot water piping to the attic is the only way to go. You just need to run glycol in the system.

njtommy

That's a good run you really can't beat that.

Not everything can be cast iron rads, baseboards, Radaint floor or panel rads. Some times it's just not in the Cards. You have to give customers the best options that work for their budgets and style homes.

ChrisJ

njtommy said:

That's a good run you really can't beat that.



Not everything can be cast iron rads, baseboards, Radaint floor or panel rads. Some times it's just not in the Cards. You have to give customers the best options that work for their budgets and style homes.

Name one time you can't have a good heavy cast iron heat exchanger in a forced air furnace?

Only one I can think of is cost.

Yeah, very good run and that furnace is the reason my dad insisted on forced air in the house he built in 2006. Sadly, he's learned his new direct vent furnace is not even close to as reliable.

Gordy

The Germans are not stupid if Americans are stuck on air we'll take a slice of that pie.

Bob Bona_4

Wonder what, if any coil is in there. Maybe modular thinking.

Robert O'Brien

http://www.viessmann.ca/en/residential/hydronic-air-handlers/air-handlers/airflowplus.html

njtommy

Looks like a nice unit. Temps look good for mod con boilers.

SWEI

Fully engineered radiant systems (think tight houses and commercial jobs) often have air requirements. Nice looking units. I'd guess they're probably rebadged from some North American manufacturer?

Mark Eatherton

Think radiant cooling and dehumidifcation... I'd betcha...

ME

Paul Pollets

the new appliances (air handlers/heat pumps) will be programmable to allow either gas or electric fuel source (or both), depending upon fuel costs and the wiring harness and control are plug and play. A mod-con can be used to provide supplemental or full time input. It always takes some time for Viessmann to release and distribute the new products. Yes, I'm sure they want a slice of the forced air/AC pie. Most N. American contractors will be befuddled by the technology and/or cost.

ChrisJ

Paul Pollets said:

the new appliances (air handlers/heat pumps) will be programmable to allow either gas or electric fuel source (or both), depending upon fuel costs and the wiring harness and control are plug and play. A mod-con can be used to provide supplemental or full time input. It always takes some time for Viessmann to release and distribute the new products. Yes, I'm sure they want a slice of the forced air/AC pie. Most N. American contractors will be befuddled by the technology and/or cost.

Reminds me of an aluminum chain link fence.
The house I grew up in had a fenced in yard surrounded by a 4' all aluminum (all hardware, posts, fabric etc was aluminum) chain link fence. it was installed in the early 1960s for I believe $3000. That's $23,471.26 in 2015 money.

Turns out, no one makes such a fence anymore. Why? Because chain link is a cheap fence by nature. An all aluminum chain link is an expensive cheap fence that no one wants.

An expensive forced air furnace? Same category IMO.

Paul Pollets

Contractors said a more expensive boiler couldn't be sold in the US. They were wrong. Now the pricing is rather competitive between the German product and its competitors. Air side products that feature multiple fuel sources that work integrally with the control are the future. That the appliance will use the least expensive fuel at any given point in time, is pretty amazing. If the customer's electric rates are cheaper at night than natural gas, the appliance will use electricity, then switch over to NG as required. "Smart" appliances make sense.

ChrisJ

Paul Pollets said:

Contractors said a more expensive boiler couldn't be sold in the US. They were wrong. Now the pricing is rather competitive between the German product and its competitors. Air side products that feature multiple fuel sources that work integrally with the control are the future. That the appliance will use the least expensive fuel at any given point in time, is pretty amazing. If the customer's electric rates are cheaper at night than natural gas, the appliance will use electricity, then switch over to NG as required. "Smart" appliances make sense.

I suppose.
But you're still selling to a population that will put themselves out of work to save 50 cents by buying stuff made in China.

The only reason forced air rules here is because of this. If the typical American can save $50 up front by buying a cheaper forced air furnace, they're going to do it. They often don't care if they will save money in the long run.

That's my opinion on the subject.

njtommy

I can't see the unit being that far over the price of a good 2 stage or modulating gas furnace.

Paul Pollets

ChrisJ, forced air rules because 70% of the country needs air conditioning. One hole=hot or cold air. There will always be those who choose the cheapest of any product. That will never change.

ChrisJ

Paul Pollets said:

ChrisJ, forced air rules because 70% of the country needs air conditioning. One hole=hot or cold air. There will always be those who choose the cheapest of any product. That will never change.

Yeah.
Nothing like having cold air coming out of vents on the floor.
Or hot air from vents on the ceiling.





Speaking of this, I'm curious what percentage of new systems were forced air in the 1950s-1970s and what percentage of them had air conditioning? Something tells me most systems in the US were forced air and very few had air conditioning installed with them.


I suppose only time will tell.

Paul Pollets

The boiler market is largely in the NE. Hydronics has never had more than an 8% share. Maybe its larger if you include wet piping to VAV systems? If there's a demand for more efficient systems or code-required efficiencies, someone will make the product. There's a reason furnaces aren't allowed in Europe...they're inefficient and fuel costs are far higher over there. But now there's demand in Europe for A/C. Harder and more expensive to do with pipes than ducts.

Rich_49

http://htproducts.com/fan-coil.html

Stay tuned boys and girls .

@Paul Pollets . Not so much more expensive than the fact that nobody is including the true added cost to construct a proper building that includes ducts .
Including the attic , basement or crawl inside the thermal envelope costs money . Building soffits and all other unsightly garbage to avoid bringing them inside the envelope costs money . Newer tech furnaces and the like are approaching what most would consider a high number . Ductless systems becoming more attractive because of misinformation .
Time top really rethink how the math is done and what we can offer without the knee jerk , our stuff is better . Time to show the facts to the public , builders and ratepayer robbing programs .

Steve Minnich

ChrisJ - I would say that 95% of our sales leads are for Hydronics and we're in the Midwest. Of that 95%, I would guess that a very high percentage would rank low price as a top priority. There are plenty of people out there who are different than the Americans you're describing. I'm with you on Made in China though but that's really, really hard to get around some time. Take a look at the last pair of pump isolation flanges you bought. There's a very good chance they were Made in China.

ChrisJ

Stephen Minnich said:

ChrisJ - I would say that 95% of our sales leads are for Hydronics and we're in the Midwest. Of that 95%, I would guess that a very high percentage would rank low price as a top priority. There are plenty of people out there who are different than the Americans you're describing. I'm with you on Made in China though but that's really, really hard to get around some time. Take a look at the last pair of pump isolation flanges you bought. There's a very good chance they were Made in China.

Hi Stephen,

I don't doubt it. But doesn't forced hot air make up the majority of the market? Isn't it something like 93%?

Sorry if I sound jaded.
I have a coworker that buys a $5 screw driver, uses it, and then returns it for a refund.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

I have a coworker that buys a $5 screw driver, uses it, and then returns it for a refund.

Tell him to try to avoid melting the tip on the live duplex outlet he was working on. They generally don't like that.

Damn defective screwdrivers..............

No, you don't understand.
He buys it, uses it to put his kid's new toy together, and then returns it because he doesn't need it anymore.

It pisses me off just typing about it.

Paul Pollets

You can't fix cheap...

Steve Minnich

I rage against forced air and, for the most part, will refer any forced air leads to a couple of sheet metal contractors I know. I can do forced air and sheet metal pretty darn well. I just choose no to.
We call forced air guys in Chicago - Bungalow Busters. They come in, they cut up the building, tear out half the rough carpentry, bang their tin together, and move on to the next one. I use to be that guy. It bores me and it's no fun so I'll let someone else do it.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

I have a coworker that buys a $5 screw driver, uses it, and then returns it for a refund.

Tell him to try to avoid melting the tip on the live duplex outlet he was working on. They generally don't like that.

Damn defective screwdrivers..............

No, you don't understand.
He buys it, uses it to put his kid's new toy together, and then returns it because he doesn't need it anymore.

It pisses me off just typing about it.

Now that is cheap. Probably uses a dime or thumb nail for unexpected tasks.....

CMadatMe

They have there hands into a lot of sectors. They do heat recovery, ventilation, refrigeration among other things world wide. Most just know of them for boilers. They're a energy company who actually R&D, develop new technologies and create products unlike the assemblers here in the US..