Check this out -

Steve Minnich

This is the boiler(s) replacement job we looked at this morning -
Quantity of 2 - 3.75 million btuh boilers.
Quantity of 4 - 5 horsepower pumps.
My first thought is to sub out the the boiler(s) removal and the pipe insulation.
My second thought is to use Lochinvar Crest boilers.
I got an assist on the evaluation of this one from Rick Butler of Lochinvar and Piotr Zelasko from Porter Pipe & Supply.
Good guys to have in your corner.

SWEI

Looks like a fun project. What's the actual load like?

Harvey Ramer

That looks like fun!

Steve Minnich

Kurt - I don't know the actual load yet. I know it's less than 3.75 million because they've run on just one boiler the last couple years without any heating issue. It's funny. While I was sitting in my truck waiting to go in, I thought there would be a really good chance that the boilers would equal 7.5 million because of the associated 150,000 square feet. The number of times I've heard in my career "50 BTUH/sf" makes my brain hurt. Turns out, they need less than half that. We're only hours into the process at this point.
Harvey - It absolutely looks like fun! I was like a kid in a candy store.

Paul48

Do the boilers have asbestos under the jackets? the pipes?

Steve Minnich

I didn't see any sign of asbestos anywhere in the building. It was built in 1963. There's a Cleaver Brooks office in town that I'll check with regarding the insulation under the jacket.

Paul48

What kind of access is there to get stuff in and out? Riggers?

Steve Minnich

There's a 72" wide doorway to the outside just to the left of the boilers. The old boilers will have to be cut up and the pieces taken out through that doorway. Getting the new boilers in will be easy.

njtommy

I've worked on plenty of Cleaver Brooks boilers. I'm sure they have plenty of life left in them and are running mid 80s for efficiency.

Steve Minnich

I'm not doubting you at all but they are 53 years old and I was told today that they've had some problems, including one of them leaking.
They are trying to be proactive in planning for the replacements.

njtommy

Nothing wrong with replacing them with a nice Crest boiler. I've seen one, but have yet to work one, but what a hell of a turn down ratio on that boiler.

We would just have the leaking tubes replaced.

nicholas bonham-carter

Maybe they can let you put some new lighting in there at the same time!
Did they give you a list of the problems they were having, as it may not be merely the boilers at fault, but rather some piping issue.
The fact that more than twice the needed capacity was installed is telling. Maybe some other errors were specified, and executed as well.--NBC

Steve Minnich

NBC - Lighting could be better, no doubt. The problems they've had in recent years had to do with 50 year old gas trains, pumps, and controls. Not surprising.

It also doesn't surprise me that installations from the 60's or any era, for that matter, were grossly oversized. We see it all the time.

I give this facility a lot of credit for their forward thinking in trying to reduce their carbon footprint. Even if these boilers are operating in the mid 80's of efficiency like njtommy said, it doesn't compare to what properly sized equipment @ 95% efficiency with 20:1 turndowns plus will do.

They are going forward with this project, with or without me. I'm just happy that I've been invited as one of the contractors to participate.

Paul48

You didn't just show up by yourself. You brought a team, with the goal of giving them the finest installation money can buy. If they fail to recognize that.....shame on them.

Steve Minnich

Thanks Paul48. I knew this was not an ordinary walk thru/evaluation. Piotr Zelasko is one of the brighter minds in our industry and kudos to Rick Butler from Lochinvar for coming out on short notice. It says a lot about Rick and Lochinvar. I think we made a favorable impression and we'll move forward with this and give it our best shot.

Mark Eatherton

If it were me, I'd keep one and have it retubed and burner upgraded, and also install a new Lochy with 100% redundant capacity. That way, when peak loads occur, the fire breathing dragon takes over and at less than design conditions, the Lochy modulates to the load. The tube sheets on the dragon are probably 3/4" thick.

I concur that Piotr is one of the brightest hydronic minds I've had the pleasure to meet. He sleeps, dreams and eats hydronics. I think you are in good hands.

ME