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Age old question - tank vs tankless

Hi all - asking for more wisdom please
Replacing a 40 gal gas HWH that is slightly undersized for family of 4. Has 3 full baths, laundry, Tubs are used for baths and showers. Options are 50 gal tank HWH - thinking Rheem, Kenmore, whirlpool. OR
tankless. Rannai, Noritz, Takagai.
Will be in basement, Baltimore city, Maryland (for weather and delta t), hot baths and long showers are normal.
I like the space saving of tankless and the idea of efficiency. I understand the venting cannot go up the chimney
Gas main is substantial. I know only way to make more instant is to use recirculating pump. I understand the occasional cold water sandwich
Last review of tankless brands was 2014. Looking for best option in type and brand and size.
I researched but no seems to be both objective and knowledable
please help - cold showers are a downer!
Replacing a 40 gal gas HWH that is slightly undersized for family of 4. Has 3 full baths, laundry, Tubs are used for baths and showers. Options are 50 gal tank HWH - thinking Rheem, Kenmore, whirlpool. OR
tankless. Rannai, Noritz, Takagai.
Will be in basement, Baltimore city, Maryland (for weather and delta t), hot baths and long showers are normal.
I like the space saving of tankless and the idea of efficiency. I understand the venting cannot go up the chimney
Gas main is substantial. I know only way to make more instant is to use recirculating pump. I understand the occasional cold water sandwich
Last review of tankless brands was 2014. Looking for best option in type and brand and size.
I researched but no seems to be both objective and knowledable
please help - cold showers are a downer!
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Comments
Do you have a gas or oil boiler? Put in a indirect water heater and then you do not have to worry about venting the indirect water heater. Find a professional Heating or Plumbing contractor and they can go over the different options to make hot water.
Or the HTP crossover or HTP Phoenix light duty would work.
http://htproducts.com/crossover.html
http://www.htproducts.com/phoenixldwaterheater.html
Make sure the heater is sized correctly. But if your house is plumbed in 1/2 copper you can only flow so much water anyway. You can put in a monster water heater but if you don't have the plumbing you spent money for bells and whistles you didn't need.
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So far, no one has mentioned service that tankless heaters require that tank type do not and no one asked about their water quality.
What gives?
@Leon82 : what size/ make buffer tank if external?
@bob eck main in house is 1" I'll measure the gas line coming in but it is pretty big, probably 1.25". I am assuming full flow to a 3/4" gas line for a tankless with a 3/4 plumbing feed to the tankless is sufficient?
Have heard a few complaints lately about bradford white - but maybe their lower level stuff.
We do have a gas boiler - big old sucker - like 300,000 BTU from the late 60's, doubt we want to run that all year. Heating pro said not to get involved with using boiler to make hot water
Use of chimney is interesting. Gas flue is lined with stainless, does that mater?? gas boiler use has an 8" flue and existing defunct State Select 40 gal tank heater has a 3" flue both going into that stainless lined chimney flue. Thanks!
@njtommy never seen HTP - thanks!
@ChrisJ please comment away!!! what service do they require?? what about water quality (ours is pretty good - fairly soft. is that what you mean?) thanks!
Thank you all for your help!
I'm not a professional on the forum so I don't know too much on the subject, but from what I recall tankless heaters over time get a build up of minerals and junk in the heat exchanger that needs to be flushed out from time to time (every few years?). The amount of time depends on your water.
I installed a 50 gallon Bradford White power vent tank model because I didn't want to deal with a tankless.
Ariston brand but any would do
For maintenance I descale with vinagar twice a year. I bought a flow aid kit but you just need a pump, bucket and 2 washing machine hoses
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This is why we recommended a 50-gallon tank-type heater when we looked at the job.
"Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
Good advice. The existing water heater may be adequate if the other changes are made.
Except that I used to run such when I had a tankless coil and as soon as that was gone so was the shower head.
I now run a twin 2.5 GPM head (one is switched) because I honestly don't have time for slower in the morning.
Sounds like @Steamhead already looked at this and quoted a tank?
In your Torphy picture, how did you manage to come out of the floor with back pipe, go uphill to the left, and then have it go straight up? Is that some of the Chinese fittings we were talking about? Or is it just a severe optical illusion?
Also, what is the reason for a mixing valve on that unit? Does it not modulate to control the output temperature?
Thanks, Rick
"Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
732-751-1560
email: [email protected]
www.langansplumbing.com
http://htproducts.com/crossover.html
Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
732-751-1560
email: [email protected]
www.langansplumbing.com
Rick
Interested in other's point's of view as well. To be fair I did ask @Steamhead 's opinion and he did suggest staying with a tank, but others have suggested changing. Figured it might be smart to learn more to make a better decision.
Out here in hard water country, we see plenty of real issues with tankless heaters. Still, they do have their uses. We happily specify and install them when they do make sense. Our primary job is to make sure the customer makes an informed decision.
Tankless water heaters are not the be-all and end-all that many purport them to be. They really are the best solution for some applications. Knowing when and how they should (and should not) be specified requires an in-depth understanding of local water conditions, customer use patterns, fuel supply, and venting. If Frank says it won't work, I'd be inclined to listen to him.
From an engineering standpoint looks like a great product, but they don't seem to have good Marketing or product representation. Trying to understand the Phoenix Light Duty vs the Crossover Vs the Hydra Smart Tankless . Seems like if you started at a conventional tank, the next step would be Phoenix Light duty, then the Crossover, then the Hydra smart Tankless as a progression to not storing any hot water. Big questions are customer service if there is an issue, customer satisfaction, product reliability, and longevity. Can you shed any light on these and on relative costs within this set. Please don't comment on specific pricing as that is against the rules.
I really need to learn more about this, and HTP is not a very well-known brand.
@Steamhead suggests a 50 gal Bradford White, but I looked online and there have been a lot of complaints about tank longevity. That could still be an option, just don't yet know.
If you read reviews of hard drives they apparently all fail and yet I've had close to no failures since 1993. People tend to review things more often when it's negative rather than positive.
Bradford White is still considered by most professionals to be the best when it comes to a tank heater.
I loved that cartoon about the tankless water heaters posted way back!!! Im still laughing.
Tankless is great, if you can afford the upfornt costs and size it correctly. Also if you like maintenance projects around the house.
Tankless for eye wash/shower stations, single spa type soaker tubs, small break rooms in offices, all too common. For the house, i dont know that consumers have really got the download yet on the pros and cons.
Consumer reports did a report many years back finding tankless water heaters take upwards of 20years to make back the initial cost of installation, vs gas savings. So if your trying to save money, might not be the best route...
But, if you love the idea of never ending water, you better size that puppy right. That little 1/2" gas line is useless anymore if you want 'endless hot water'.
Here in san jose, we had an inspector (great guy btw) that would not let you keep the tankless unless you could turn every faucet and fixture on in the house at the same time and still have hot water coming out of all taps. Well the gpm for the tankless was never designed for full load like that, and it took many years before new houses and remodels were able to squeak by that standard.
Doing an annual vinegar **** of a heat exchanger in a tankless unit would not be an issue either.
Doing an annual vinegar **** of a heat exchanger in a tankless unit would not be an issue either.
But I want no part of a tankless heater.
Robert O'Connor/NJ
It's never been something that's really been enough of a deal for me to worry about increasing it's efficiency. Same goes for my refrigerators costing $3-5 a month to run. It's just way too small to care about and higher efficiency water heaters both cost a fortune to install and simply don't seem to last long enough to ever matter.
If someone knows how to "increase the efficiency" of my Comcast or Verizon bills each costing hundreds a month I'm open to suggestions though.
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