Hydronic System - "Whoosh" Noise

Redrum

hot rod said:

From how I see it your solution is maybe going in the other direction??

Hi HR;
I realize cycling a motor is not ideal, and can lessen life especially in an AC motor. I know that my idea was logical, but not practical.
My solution "going in the other direction?" I'm sorry, I don't know what direction that is. I am kind of stuck right now.

In my system right now, the ZV's closing are making a noise you can hear throughout the house in transition (with pump running). Other valves aren't. I can't say the old Honeywells wouldn't also because the configuration is so radically different when I changed over to the new system.

You and others have suggested a delta P pump, although mark thinks the response might not be quick enough, and others have suggested a pressure activated bypass. Maybe it's time for me to call the installers and try something, so if any of those or other ideas are viable, it might be just time to give it a go.

All in all, all that I have been trying to do (with all of your gracious help) is to give the people that installed the system a good push in the right direction, as they seem to be as stuck as I am.

I realize my problem is unique, and I might be in the 1% that encounter something like this due to a build up of factors, otherwise, if it was just the ZV, not only would Taco be getting hammered with complaints, the guys on this board would be saying "seen this 1,000 times, it's XXXX"

Might be time to try something logical. Best guess (not the right word) anyone?

happy weekend
Jim
PS - the good news is summer is coming and if not solved, I can forget about it until october!

hot_rod

Hi HR;
I realize cycling a motor is not ideal, and can lessen life especially in an AC motor. I know that my idea was logical, but not practical.
My solution "going in the other direction?" I'm sorry, I don't know what direction that is. I am kind of stuck right now.

With the delta P circ option you may not only fix the noise problem but they also never cycle on/ off. You basically plug the pump into a receptacle, put in in auto mode and it takes care of it self, ramping up and down as the zones require and going into a 7W sleep mode when zones are off. And they use about 50% less electricity. if you can convince the installer to give it a try, that would be my suggestion.

I doubt he will offer to repipe and change out components and upgrade placement of what you have. The circ pump is a simple 4 bolt swap out.

Paul48

I think the delta p circ will slow down, just after the whoosh.

hot_rod

Paul48 said:

I think the delta p circ will slow down, just after the whoosh.

It would be interesting to try and see. I suppose it depends on how quickly the closing of the valve develops the noise.

I'll send you a delta p circ to try, just so we can all learn how it responds to the condition.

Redrum

hot rod said:

Paul48 said:

I think the delta p circ will slow down, just after the whoosh.

It would be interesting to try and see. I suppose it depends on how quickly the closing of the valve develops the noise.

I'll send you a delta p circ to try, just so we can all learn how it responds to the condition.

Hi Paul, Bob;

I have attached a screen shot from an audio editor that shows the whoosh in the frame of the 4 second ZV closing. I ran the audio and marked the point at which the whoosh starts to get obnoxious. That is, if the Delta P pump might start to react, perhaps the obnoxious part might be muted.

It starts 0.75 seconds after the click. But of course, I don't have pressure measured and mapped over the sound, and that is what the pump would react to, not the sound of course.

I have zero experience with this type of pump, compared to you guys, but I fear that Paul might be right. But, without knowing how the pump responds to pressure changes, what pressure changes are associated with the whoosh, we can't know.

Jim

PS - Bob, yes, agree, an easy swap out to try. Regarding the installer making any major changes, I know that he knows he is obligated to do just that, as it was an issue since the first week of the system, and as you know, these systems with the indirect aren't cheap. However, I don't want them to have to make any major changes on the "hopes" that is does something. We would all hate to do that and still have the whoosh.

I'm working more on making things livable, and reducing obnoxious noises to "cute"

Redrum

I also keep thinking about the pump I have in general, and how my old B&G pump with honeywell zones never made a whisper on valve closing (other than the gearbox grind).

This noise, it's like, the pump is full throttle and the ZV is slamming on the brakes.

I keep thinking about the comments that Harvey and mark (and others?) have made about slowing the pump down until I get delta 20 degrees, and in reading about delta P pumps, I ran into delta T info (something else I never knew about).

Anyhow, from my understanding, these pumps dynamicaly adjust speed/flow rate to get you to 20 degrees, which is what Harvey and Mark have suggested manually. To me it seems like this might give you the slowest possible flow to heat the house, thereby reducing the effect of slamming on the brakes?

Since these are bolt in/out, I am wondering if I should ask my installer to come equipped with both?
Jim

hot_rod

I think the installers here that have experience with both will agree that delta P circs are best suited for systems with zone valves.

In the AUTO mode they will "learn" the hydraulic characteristics of your system with various valves open and closed. It takes several days to a week for the pumps electronics to map and adjust to the conditions.

So first, I think the pump will run slower and limit the high flow rates under all zones opethat condition. That in itself may make the noise disappear. Then the pump will know the required flow with various zones calling. With that one small zone running you should see the display ramp down to a low speed.

I'd like to see a high performance micro bubble type air separator replace that scoop type also to eliminate the possibility of air causing or making the sound worse.

This journal goes into more detail about air removal in hydronic systems.
http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_2_0.pdf

This issue talks about the choices in smart pumps, and how limiting delta T, with a fixed ∆T through a system has implications.
http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_16_na_0.pdf

Of course accurately determining how much flow each zone requires at design conditions would further determine proper circ pump sizing, looks like Mark has taken a stab at that, you could tighten up those numbers with info only some one at the site could determine, like fittings, pipe and emitter length, etc.

I like the HDS software for that. The Circuit Simulator module, does the calculations for zone by zone and near boiler piping. May be a free demo at this site www.hydronicpros.com

Mark Eatherton

Jim, if you have ever pinched off a flowing garden hose (like I have..) you will hear the same hydraulic scream.

As for throwing new pump technology at this problem, I really don't think it's going to make that much difference. The delta P pump is going to see the HUGE "holes" in the system and do everything in its power to fill them holes. (Read high speed). It too is a high head pump.

The deltaT pump starts out running at high speed to get things moving, and even when it idles back to its slowest speed, it will still be moving fluid at a relatively high velocity.

Replacing he pumps to correct the valve noise problem is akin to having brain surgery to disconnect nerves to correct a bunion problem on your feet... Make very little sense IMHO.

Put in properly sized (to the connected load and required flow) ball and seat zone valves and your whooshing problems WILL go away... I promise.

ME

hot_rod

Jim, if you have ever pinched off a flowing garden hose (like I have..) you will hear the same hydraulic scream.

But when I kink a hose I hear a crackling sound, it a form of cavitation, similar to the Rice Krispie or gravel sound you sometimes hear in pumps.

Opening and closing it quickly with a fast valve could produce the whoosh sound you are hearing. I agree with Mark on that.

Off topic, but interesting. An example of worse case cavitation damage, that some say came close to un-leashing an over flowing Lake Powell back in the 80's when a 6 foot snow pack in the Rockies decided to change state in a few weeks time. I suspect it was louder than a bowl of Rice Krispies.

Mark Eatherton

hot rod said:

Jim, if you have ever pinched off a flowing garden hose (like I have..) you will hear the same hydraulic scream.

But when I kink a hose I hear a crackling sound, it a form of cavitation, similar to the Rice Krispie or gravel sound you sometimes hear in pumps.

Opening and closing it quickly with a fast valve could produce the whoosh sound you are hearing. I agree with Mark on that.

Off topic, but interesting. An example of worse case cavitation damage, that some say came close to un-leashing an over flowing Lake Powell back in the 80's when a 6 foot snow pack in the Rockies decided to change state in a few weeks time. I suspect it was louder than a bowl of Rice Krispies.

I have always said when teaching that the best example of hydraulic erosion corrosion is the Grand Canyon... This proves my point. Man, that is some serious erosion corrosion there...

Nice find HR. I'd bet there were some red faced PE's on that job, if they were still alive.

ME

Gordy

The best one I have witnesses is the power of steam erosion at a nuke plant outage. I seen a piece of 90 degree 16" dia SS pipe with 4" thick walls. It looked like someone took a cutting torch to the outside radius of the 90 inside of the pipe. That, and the fins on the turbine blades.

Paul48

That's what 10000 psi of steam can do.

hot_rod

Mark Eatherton said:

hot rod said:

Jim, if you have ever pinched off a flowing garden hose (like I have..) you will hear the same hydraulic scream.

But when I kink a hose I hear a crackling sound, it a form of cavitation, similar to the Rice Krispie or gravel sound you sometimes hear in pumps.

Opening and closing it quickly with a fast valve could produce the whoosh sound you are hearing. I agree with Mark on that.

Off topic, but interesting. An example of worse case cavitation damage, that some say came close to un-leashing an over flowing Lake Powell back in the 80's when a 6 foot snow pack in the Rockies decided to change state in a few weeks time. I suspect it was louder than a bowl of Rice Krispies.

I have always said when teaching that the best example of hydraulic erosion corrosion is the Grand Canyon... This proves my point. Man, that is some serious erosion corrosion there...

Nice find HR. I'd bet there were some red faced PE's on that job, if they were still alive.

ME

Just read the book The Emerald Mile about running the Colorado through Grand Canyon. Some really good data on the flood year of 83.
There is a cavitation lab in downtown Denver Federal building 56. That lab can funnel up to 1/4 million gallons to scale models used for testing and research.
See if you can get us a tour of that 65,000 square foot facility at the Denver Federal Center.

Engineers scrambled to find the cause of the erosion of the 40 foot diameter tube, 3 foot thick! They suspect a bump inside the tube about the size of a walnut created the turbulence at high dump conditions. Turbulence led to cavitation that chewed away that giant pipe.

Allegedly, as quantum theorist Werner Heisenberg lay on his death bed he anticipated asking God two questions

"Why relativity? And please explain turbulence"

That dam was, may still be one of the largest machines on earth with 8- 254,000 hp turbines!

Redrum

Hi Mark, Bob;

You differ in opinion, which is healthy.

I previously stated in absence of putting a finger on the culprit(s), it's time to try something(s). I am normally not a band aid guy, and not saying your suggestions are band aids, but my system is terrific in every regard except the whoosh. Time to try a few things, even if they might be considered as such.

Bob, you have mentioned a few times a delta P pump is worth a try. What do you recommend? My zone lengths and sizes are previously in the thread.

Mark, you said that you have confidence a ball and seat style valve will help/work. You then say "properly sized" - for the pipe size? pump? What would you recommend?

The way I see it, a delta P pump can't hurt, and if I install say one of the different style ZV, I can quickly tell if it helps. Both are not allot of work.

I think I would like to add better air elimination as well, perhaps this summer.

It's funny, this seems like a typical straight forward application - 1600 sq' two story cape cod, two zones, a basement zone that isn't used, a panel radiator in a 150 ft' enclosed porch, plus indirect hot water. It seems like the equipment I have would be spec'ed for this type of application a thousand times (plumbed differently), and never have a problem. Otherwise, there would be allot of people walking around in "Got Whoosh?" T-shirts (sorry, couldn't resist a bad joke).

I just have to have "something" that is unique about my system. Time to try everything one at a time.

Jim

hot_rod

I agree with you that your system is not all that un usual. I'd ask the installer if he has used that valve and pump combination in the past and had any complaints. It could be more of those are making some noise but homeowners consider it normal, or don't hear it.

The advice from Taco, above, was to switch to a flat curve type circulator. They should know that valve as well as anyone here.

A motorized ball valve is not uncommon, we sell quite a few to the heat pump industry. They are used on "pump and dump" type installs because of high flow and high shut off pressures. Our valve takes 40- 45 seconds to travel open or close. I have not heard of that type of noise complaint, but heat pumps are noisey appliances anyways.

I think the only way to give you an answer that would make an engineer smile is to run some calcs. The journal I linked you to takes you through that process step by step, or get someone with a sim program to do the numbers.

Only with those numbers related to your exact installation could you pin down the exact pump requirement. If you had that data you could point the installer to it and prove that something is mis-sized. Without documentation he doesn't learn anything either.

Also Idronics 16 shows you how to develop a system curve to overlay on the pump curve and define EXACTLY where the pump is running at any given condition, called the OP operating point.

Without these steps everyone is somewhat shooting from the hip or going on past, practical experiences.

Dave H from Taco has advised, early on, to switch the circ pump. He knows that valve and systems like yours, so that is one option.

I don't know if a ∆P circ would cure it, possibly not with a 5 second close off on that valve. But it is a good match for many zoned systems and would be ideal if you chose to use a TRV on that one zone.

The link someone attached suggested that ZV has caused noise problems on other installations, but without knowing all the info, it could have been pump/ system related also.

What I do know is that spring return "flapper" style like HW, Erie, Caleffi, WR and others generally do not cause that sound, and if anything they can set up elastic shock waves shutting down against excessive flow rates that causes a hammer, not whoosh as Paul noted.

Typical spring return ZVs are rated around 7- 8 Cv and close off pressure around 20- 25 psi, so that is a wide range for common applications.

I guess at this point if it was an easy troubleshoot, you wouldn't be here

My advise, start with the installer, share the thoughts you got here, ask if he has had any other complaints, and if he would agree to first, switch the circ pump. It may be that simple. I'm sure he would like it to be.

Paul48

I'd say the noise is being transmitted through the pipes. I'd clamp some insulation on the pipes, and see if you can't deaden the noise being transmitted to the rest of the house.

Harvey Ramer

Redrum said:

Harvey Ramer said:

I don't have the time for a full explanation right now, but if you want your problem solved in short order use the TRV and disconnect that thermostat and leave the zone valve open (panel rad circuit).

Hi Harvey; - you are the pro, and I am not, so I am sure you are right, but...

I had always thought that TRV's are used with panels in parallel where the trv slowly closes off the panels that don't need to heat, while allowing others to continue to heat, to balance the heat in the room (e.g. more heat in front of windows, less in areas where the sun is shining in).

In order to keep my zone open, and use a trv to choke off the water when the room comes to temp, I would need something to start the pump if it was the only zone needing heat. Also, if it pumped continuously, when it did choke the water off, it would have to bypass somehow. I had thought that in these applications that (somehow) the boiler senses the temperature comming back through a bypass to be near equal to going out, and then shuts off the pump. But, my experience in this area is only through reading.

Finally, the panel zone would still be open when the TRV is open, and when I turned off another zone, I think I would have the whoosh.

I think your suggestion would be appropriate if the panel was in parallel to say the first floor zone, where the panel just warms a cold spot, but it's not the case, the panel is in a small sun room that could be shut off from the main floor.

If I still don't get it, I'm sorry.

Jim

No problem. I have some time now so I'll try to explain how it works.

First of all, you have noted that the loudest noise that you wish to get rid of takes place only when there are only 2 active zones. One of them being the panel rad piped in 1/2" and 1 of them being another zone piped in 1". As suggested by you, the noise happens when the 1" zone closes while the panel rad zone remains open.
That is completely understandable since the panel rad is piped in 1/2" and is a higher head loss circuit than the 1" zones. As the 1" zone closes, the pressure builds rapidly on the back side of the zone valve causing the hissing sound. The piping amplifies and carries the sound through the house.

So here's what I have been suggesting. And it is noteworthy that this will be the least expensive, easiest and quickest fix. Best of all you won't get wet and it'll only take 5 minutes.
Once more, unscrew the shut off cap from the panel rad and in it's place screw on the TRV that is built for the rad. They are very inexpensive. On the respective zone valve, all you really need to do is unplug the 2 wiring terminal connections from the actuator. Then manually open the valve and leave it open.

Here is how it will function. The TRV will open and close based on the actual room temperature, allowing flow or restricting it. That room will not send an electronic signal to the boiler and pump when there is a heat demand. It will only get heat when any one of the other zones is active. As a rule, if you have a 3-4 zone system running on odr, the percentage of time that at least one of the electronically controlled zones is active, is quite enough time to satisfy the heating demands of the TRV controlled zone. Another nice feature is that in effect, it increases the size of any given zone because it scarfs btu's off the boiler when one of those other zones calls. It can increase run times and reduce short cycling, which is good.

In your application, your whoosh noise should go away because you will no longer have the situation where a 1" zone closes against the 1/2" zone while the pump continues to run. Remember, the TRV cannot turn on the boiler or pump.

Will it work you ask? Your engineering mind refutes it. The fact remains, It does work fantastically, I have been doing it for a number of years to address micro zones and other unique situations. Never had a complaint.

Humor me and give it a whirl.

Redrum

Hi Harvey, HG,

thank you harvey, perfectly clear, and it makes total sense. The first thing I thought of, is inline with the last thing that HG said:

Hatterasguy said:

Regarding the OP, the odds are that he'll be fine but it COULD be possible that the TRV in the selected zone is open 100% of the time and the room doesn't meet setpoint. This would occur if the radiation in that zone is proportionally less than all other zones in the building. Granted it is unlikely.

Let's say I am only running one of the two main zones. It seems to me that ideally, you would want the heat transfer per ft^2 of the panel radiator room to be greater than the main zone, and the heat loss of that panel radiator room to be less. That way, the TRV would always shut off before the pump (when at temp), and the main higher heat loss room would call for heat earlier.

If I have the opposite, as HG notes, I could have a problem. I am pretty sure I might have an issue (if I only relied on one zone) because, while the panel radiator room is new, anally built and insulated by me, there is allot of glass, and when the panel zone turns on, it seems to run quite a while. I have always told myself that's ok because I assumed hotter water was being returned (i.e. less heat lost per cycle, more circ).

But, when you add the second zone, the likelihood of additional pump time is high. I have observed, except when it's very cold, I rarely see upstairs and downstairs zones open at the same time.

If I were to still have an issue, an answer could be a bigger panel, which is also easy - mounting and two compression fittings.

What I am left with would still be the whoosh of one of the main zone closing while the other is open, but it is not as obnoxious, and perhaps some of the other suggestions, like Paul's suggestion of pipe insulation might help as well.

A great thought, thank you, I'll try it. TRV is about $30 from SH.

Also, since I have a stat of the wall, I can still use it as a digital thermometer to dial in the right number setting of the TRV...

I love to be able to solve it with a typical 4 zone, circ, ZV, stats, solution (and I might still noodle and research other's suggestion), but this is certainly worth a try.

Cool, thanks again.
Jim

Redrum

agree 100% HG, that's what I meant by "might still noodle and research other's suggestions". One of those is to try one other ZV as you, HR, others? have suggested. Although it requires sweating/pro press, that's not a tone of work. If I try one, and you are correct, I'll do the rest of them

The "research" part comes in where HR and Mark were saying I have to properly size a pump (if I were to swap), and a ZV. At this point that is what I have to understand how to do, even if my contractor says he can/will.

Harvey's idea is worth the $30, even if it's not the "ideal" solution. It's a great learning experience, as has been this this whole thread/experience.

It's funny, once you identify how to create the whoosh (or hammering, or other sounds), you have the ability to do a "change this, better?". You even start to think "is this so bad?"

Then, later... the aggravating whoosh is so dynamic. the one you create pales in comparison with the WHHHHOOSHH! that either can wake you up, surprise the company, or make you just lower your head a bit and say "oh crap". I am afraid there are allot of factors at play, zone timing, temperature of the water, pipes, etc.that all combine for the big daddy whoosh.

Again, thanks to the whole community for taking the time.
Jim

Harvey Ramer

Might be worth mentioning. I have a mini tube system installed the uses 15-58 circs on the long injection loops. The flow is modulated with a Taco I-series valves, which are basically the same valve body design as the zone valves. These valves modulate all over the place to maintain proper mixed temp. It loads and unloads the circs as it does it. Theses valves are set in aquatherm and pex piping. They are whisper quiet. No noise at all.

Ideally I would have used delta-P pumps but the water quality, system status and budget weren't condusive.

Redrum

from an old thread from HR:

What I do know is that spring return "flapper" style like HW, Erie, Caleffi, WR and others generally do not cause that sound, and if anything they can set up elastic shock waves shutting down against excessive flow rates that causes a hammer, not whoosh as Paul noted.

and the comment above from Paul:

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but will repeat.

If you change the zone valves to Honeywell, the problem will be eliminated. As HR also noted, other ball and seat type valves will also likely be successful.

Is there a specific series of the above ZV's that you would recommend that I try? With the current Taco Zone Sentry's I really like that they are relatively energy efficient, the manual overide (and zone status indication) is real nice, and the mechanical operation is quiet.

With my old Honeywells, I hated the manual override actuation, and also the dificulty in quickly determining if the valve is open or not.

So are there any of the HW style valve series that I should consider? Something similar to what I have in regards to controls and features, but of the alternate actuator style?

My plan moving forward is to buy a TRV and try Harvey's idea. The TRV is not expensive, and I'm interested to see it in action, over time, that is, let it get cold and see if the room temp maintains. I can always take it out, or turn the control real high.

I'd like to try a new ZV because I can create the mini whoosh, with circ at speed 3 and two other zones. I'd like to swap out at least one, and see if I can get rid of the mini whoosh or not.

I am also going to try some insulation as suggested by paul, especially in the basement zone, where even though it's not used, it's a real cob job, and can act as an antenna of sorts.

So, give me a head start on ZV choices, then I'll go away for a few weeks. But, I promise I'll be back and let you know how I made out.

The journey has been mentally stimulating and enjoyable, thank you all once again.

Cheers
Jim

Redrum

Hate is probably to strong of a word, sorry...

I have 4 at my mom's house, and had 3 at my house (the new system added the indirect, I added the panel). Maybe because they were old, but it was hard to slide them over, and sometimes I feared I was going to break them. Maybe also because they were buried up in between the floor joists, and I needed a ladder and a bump on the head to access them, now the tacos are right in front of me.

Yes, I can just push to see if they are open, but with the taco's, I just look at the bank.

Maybe looking at the indication of open/closed is not a normal activity, but in trying to track down whoosh, I would hear big daddy whoosh, run down, see which one(s) are open, then feel the pipes to determine which one just closed. It was very useful for that.

Anyhow, I am looking for advice on the series, if it's Honeywell, there are 4043, 8043, and the VC series (new?). It was also mentioned by HR above:

What I do know is that spring return "flapper" style like HW, Erie, Caleffi, WR and others generally do not cause that sound

I was just wondering if there were a new style valve that had the attributes I like in the taco, but the valve design similar to the HW.

One last thing I forgot to mention, it would be pretty important from a swap out perspective that the new ZV be mounted vertical.
Jim

hot_rod

I work for Caleffi, so...

I have installed and serviced quite a few different brands over the years and can say the Caleffi Z- One is the most engineered valve out there.

A few unique features, when you manually open a Caleffi it does make the end switch. So you know immediately if the valve is open by looking at the light on the relay board.

I highly recommend any ZV connects via a relay board. This assures proper wiring and give you additional control logic functions.

If you use the Caleffi Z-one with the Caleffi relays you get a 5 year warranty on both valves and relay board.

Belimo, Grundfos, Erie, HW are other popular spring return style valves.


http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/03586-88-15na.pdf

Mark Eatherton

I agree with HR's recommendation that you start from scratch. You at least have to do that to determine what size of valve you will be installing on your oversized piping system. It starts with a simple heat loss calculation, of which there are many FREE programs out there, or you con roll your own spreadsheet if you are so inclined. A/R*delta T = conductive losses, plus infiltration, which is room volume *.018 * Delta T time air changes per hour.

Once you have the load calc per zone/room, then you can determine how many linear feet of finned tube you'll need per room and zone.

Then, as I showed you in previous math, load divided by output per foot (assuming 500 btuH/linear foot works OK for me). Once you have totaled the load per zone, divide that by 10,000 , which tells you how many GPM of 180 degree F water @ a 20 degree delta T you will need to flow through that circuit.

At that point, if you wanted to recheck the hydraulic calculations that I'd tested for you (Siggywerks software) you can go to the resource HR directed you to for a free version of the hydraulic calculator to see if you have the right pump. The only snag with that program is that for a given circuit, it doesn't allow you to calculate two different pipe sizes/pipe lengths for a given circuit... You'd have to do a manual hand calculation to determine it exactly.

Once you have determined flow per zone, you can then choose the proper sized valve. Flow limitations are 1-1/2 GPM for 1/2", 4 GPM for 3/4", 8 GPM for 1" and 14 GPM for 1-1/4".

Do a load calculation will also help you in the future when you decide to get rid of the mid efficiency boiler you have and install a new mod con boiler. It will determined the required water temperatures needed at design conditions, which are probably not 180 degrees F.

As it pertains to Honeywell zone valves, the V8043 series has proven reliable. It is mechanical and electrical and is subject to failure, but if it does, you can replace all the working parts without having to get into the water side of the valve.

One thing I have done in these situations, in addition to Harveys recommendation of throwing a TRV at the porch zone, is to put a pressure activated bypass on the same porch zone. This way, if all valves are calling, regardless of the TRV's position (open or closed) that zone doesn't get much flow until the larger zones shut down, creating excess pressure and flow, then sending energy to the porch zone.

I didn't run the hydraulic analysis on the 1/2" porch zone, but would be glad to if you can provide all the fittings and pipe in that run, along with the calculated load and the pressure drop through the radiator at design conditions.

One note, earlier, you mentioned the cross section of the pipes and valves. It almost sounded as though you were trying to relate this to a buss bar's amperage capacity. They are similar, but not the same. (Could also have been my misreading your statement)

Having a small orifice in a large pipe doesn't mean the whole pipe acts like the orifice. The orifice is a speed bump on the road. The road's width and length and traffic flow dictates pressure drop. I actually envy a good electrical engineer. They have a better grasp on pressure drop and flow then most hydronic mechanics do. In fact, John Siegenthaler teaches Ohm's law as a part and parcel of explaining flow and pressure drop in a hydraulic circuit.

ME

Dave H_2

Jim,

Go flat, take a look here for the difference in circ selection and zone valves.
Take a look at it from the other side http://jbblog.flopro.taco-hvac.com/backfield-in-motion/

Dave H.

JohnNY

If I may resurrect an old thread....
I'm dealing with this exact situation now. I'm staying in a friend's house for a week where earlier I installed: a 110 MBH Slant-Fin boiler, two ¾" Zone Sentry valves, a 007e system circulator, and a ZVC relay, piped through a Taco Hydraulic Separator and 007 boiler circulator.
It's 15° here this morning. The first floor zone runs long cycles while the 2nd floor zone, where I'm sleeping, cycles every 15-20 minutes or so. When the 2nd floor cycles while the 1st floor is still running, I get that exact whoosh sound Redrum posted in an audio file earlier in this thread.
My solution for tonight is simple. I'm going to manually open both zone valves, limit my boiler temperature to 160° and let the system run on a call from either of the two thermostats, and shut down when both remove the call. Yes. I realize the potential problems with that, but it's temporary, and quiet.

Last night, throttling the outlet isolation valve of the 007e system pump produced a constant (turbulence? velocity? restriction?) noise when the 2nd floor zone called for heat. I don't think I'm over pumped for the house but I do think I'm overpumped for one zone, and I really wanted to find an application for the 007e. It's a sweet pump.
I figure I need ~8 gpm total flow through the boiler but only about 3 gpm at 9.6 ft/hd through the longest zone. Now I have to deal with the zone valve noise. I'll let you know what I do to put this to bed but I found this thread interesting.
Thanks, friends.

hot_rod

JohnNY said:

If I may resurrect an old thread....
I'm dealing with this exact situation now. I'm staying in a friend's house for a week where earlier I installed: a 110 MBH Slant-Fin boiler, two ¾" Zone Sentry valves, a 007e system circulator, and a ZVC relay, piped through a Taco Hydraulic Separator and 007 boiler circulator.
It's 15° here this morning. The first floor zone runs long cycles while the 2nd floor zone, where I'm sleeping, cycles every 15-20 minutes or so. When the 2nd floor cycles while the 1st floor is still running, I get that exact whoosh sound Redrum posted in an audio file earlier in this thread.
My solution for tonight is simple. I'm going to manually open both zone valves, limit my boiler temperature to 160° and let the system run on a call from either of the two thermostats, and shut down when both remove the call. Yes. I realize the potential problems with that, but it's temporary, and quiet.

Last night, throttling the outlet isolation valve of the 007e system pump produced a constant (turbulence? velocity? restriction?) noise when the 2nd floor zone called for heat. I don't think I'm over pumped for the house but I do think I'm overpumped for one zone, and I really wanted to find an application for the 007e. It's a sweet pump.
I figure I need ~8 gpm total flow through the boiler but only about 3 gpm at 9.6 ft/hd through the longest zone. Now I have to deal with the zone valve noise. I'll let you know what I do to put this to bed but I found this thread interesting.
Thanks, friends.

I think ∆P circs are the best solution for any, maybe all zone valved installations.

Sounds like you have the flat curve circ that Dave suggested in his post, and you still have a flow noise?

JohnNY

Yeah. I hear the water flowing at night and you can't miss the sound of the zone valve closing.

Redrum

Hi,
I'm the OP. I have probably "solved" the noise but have not corrected it. I guess I am just living with it, as it only occurs in winter and when the sun is down (more later).

The installer tried a new pump (Taco 007), but it didn't help. It has to be the taco valves. I got tired of chasing the installer, and also realized that they aren't that knowledgeable. So, I will eventually change out the valves myself and send them a bill for the materials. Problem is, summer is the time to do it and I forget about the noise.

I have four zones, and a fifth indirect water zone. The indirect is 3/4", the three main zones are 1", but reduce to 3/4" in the field (where I replaced radiators). The problem child is a 3/4" valve that reduces to 1/2" that feeds a panel radiator in a small enclosed "porch". The Porch has allot of glass windows/door/skylights and is open to the main house, so the solar energy minimizes this zone running in daylight in winter.

two or more of the tacos open, with one closing always causes the whoosh to some extent but it doesn't transmit into the house, unless it's one of the bigger ones (3/4") closing while the 1/2" remains open. At night while sleeping upstairs east, with the boiler in basement west, the noise is heard.

Anyhow, since John and HR commented, I thought I would let you know that I haven't proven what the problem is, but have a strong suspicion I need to change out the valves.

I just haven't done anything about it.

Jim

JohnNY

You don't need to change the valves. Neither do I. What we need to do, which is a much smarter approach for lots of reasons, is get our flow rates under control. The valves have nice indicator lights on them, install in any direction, are easy to manipulate manually and give clear indication whether they are open or closed. Really nice stuff. That said, it's definitely flow through the closing valve that's making the noise.

Redrum

I never had this problem with the old style honeywell valves. It appeared after I had a new boiler installed with the taco valves. It was made worse when I added the back porch zone (the 1/2" valve). Prior to that zone I could hear the noise, but once I added the 1/2" valve (actually 3/4" reduced to 1/2"), the whoosh got significantly worse, i.e. hear in upstairs in bed.

If you look through the thread, there were two proposed solutions, the pump (tried) and going back to a ball and seat style valve (Honeywell and others). See posts from Hot Rod and Hatterasguy.

So, I am thinking valves.

I don't want to go back to Honeywell per say, but that's only because of years of issues with them at both my parents and my house (primarily with the valve drives and the end switches). I'll probably choose an alternative.

If there are any other thought abound, I would be willing to try them, especially if they are simpler than replacing 4-5 zone valves.

Jim

Hilly

I'd be super curious if @Hotrod a suggestion of a delta pump would cure both systems.

JohnNY

The ∆T pump would have to react very quickly to keep with the speed of the closing valve.
I may pop a Taco
005 in and check that out, though I like Señor @Mark Eatherton's idea of a dimmer switch very much.

hot_rod

Unless you have a lot of entrained air, you generally do not hear flow in a tube until you hit 5 fps or so.

Gordy

They make a speed control for AC power tools such as a router. Pick them up at a big box. Much better than a dimmer switch. Not that it won't work. I know if you use a dimmer switch on a ceiling fan verses a variable speed switch for a ceiling fan the dimmer will make the motor hum at lower speeds.

hot_rod

Gordy said:

They make a speed control for AC power tools such as a router. Pick them up at a big box. Much better than a dimmer switch. Not that it won't work. I know if you use a dimmer switch on a ceiling fan verses a variable speed switch for a ceiling fan the dimmer will make the motor hum at lower speeds.

Exactly, some switched just vary voltage. When you lower voltage to a motor the current draw will go up, the motor may over-heat. One pump manufacturer told me not to use typical off the shelf dimmer switches on their motors.

Really ECM ∆ circulators solve many issues and reduce operating costs to boot. In some areas they have rebate programs on them. A co worker got a $100.00 spiff on each of 6 Alpha upgrades, cost him 30 bucks each to upgrade all his circs.

MikeL_2

Jim,
I had the same issue and ended up replacing the zone valves.........all quiet now!

Gordy

Unless a speed controller turns out to be a permenant solution. Say it works, how will you plot a proper sized circ?

Mark Eatherton

I know you know this, but are all pumps pumping away from the PONPC? If yes, try injecting some Dawn dish detergent in the system.

ME