hot water boiler and system repipe.

Paul S_3

Customer of mine was completely gutting and renovating there Brownstone in Bedford Stuyvesant Brooklyn. This was in july of 2015. I proposed 3 options for the contractor and homeowner, 1 was radiant in floor - 2 was Buderus panel rads with homerun system. 3- was series loop baseboards with individual zones. ...all with high efficiency mod cons.
Contractor and homeowner said i was ridiculously overpriced. They went with another contractor who was 50% cheeper on the baseboard option ..So this winter the homeowner called me back because the installer and a few other contractors couldnt figure out why there system wouldnt heat.one contractor installed a taco 0013 to "pump the water faster " he told this poor homeowner. The cheeper installer installed 2 atmospheric water boilers 70k btu. 1 for basement where the tenant lives 1 bedroom apartment which operated fine this winter besides the short cycling because of the oversizing heat load in apartment is 16k btu. For the main house This winter when the temp drop below 40f it could only maintain 55f the really cold spell we had near zero temps the main house was 47f. The installer ran 3/8" pex for 1st and 2nd floor one complete loop. With only 18ft of baseboard in first floor ( btu load calc 25k). And 16ft of baseboard on 3rd fl. (Load calc 24k btu). I had to add a significant amount of baseboard on both floors, abandon the 3/8" pex in the walls and run new exposed piping throughout home. The homeowner did not want any damage done to the newly renovated home. I ran a total of 4 seperate loops 2 for 1st ,2 for 2nd. I did what i could with the boiler, going back with a Lwco tomorrow. So when its all said and done customer paid almost double than my most expensive quote.

Paul S_3

Boiler before repipe

BobC

You can pay me now or you can pay me later.

Bob

Leon82

Wow, when you said exposed I figured a pipe along the baseboard.

Paul S_3

They didnt want anything cut open....so i proposed this option...they wanted the heat to work...they had no heat this whole winter

Leon82

They learned a lesson, hopefully.

Sadly many people come to a site like this after its too late.

njtommy

Holy crap. What the hell is wrong with people.

Cheap is best and only rich people can afford to do it twice.

Abracadabra

I love stories like this. Customers that complain about price and claim they have a cheaper contractor, I point to threads like these and let them make up their mind. After reading these horror stories, about 40% of those that initially hemmed and hawed about the price end up taking my quote.

thread bookmarked

KC_Jones

Looks great. I do have one question...did they put in granite counter tops in the kitchen?

Paul S_3

Yes they did put granite counter tops

Steamhead

And do they have a late-model BMW in the driveway?

Rich_49

You are aware that this customer will never tell "The Story" of how stupid he was ? People will be told that you are the best contractor and will look at the exposed piping .
I applaud the fact that you helped him get a better system and actually heat his house . Not sure I would have touched it whilst not being allowed to get those pipes inside the walls or at a minimum behind some sort of detail . Unintended consequences can really hurt someone with the best intentions . Save the link to this discussion and post it on your website so folks will know you are not RESPONSIBLE for the UGLY that exists .

Nice save , by the way .

SWEI

Nice corner details on that BB.

LionA29

Maybe the Homeowner likes the sight of copper or like the industrial looks. In time I think they might cover those pipes with a closet.

Paul Pollets

Poor design and poor execution tend to dominate many installations. They're always associated with the "cheaper price". Using 2 boilers for such a small load is wasteful and hardly energy efficient.

LionA29

@Paul S Are those the copper pipe find baseboards?
Any reason why you didn't use cast iron baseboards?

Paul S_3

Yes they are copper fin tube baseboard. ...cast iron baseboard around me is significantly higher in price plus the labor to install ...most customers want the least expensive ...i wish i had a better pic im in the process of a home renovation. ...which im installing 2 zone cast iron baseboard about 60 ft all together. ...

LionA29

Thank you @Paul S.

STEAM DOCTOR

Question: Whats more expensive? Late model BMW or 96 Ford Taurus?
Answer: Neither. The BMW is more VALUABLE. Not more expensive.
You need to emphasize to your customers that you are more valuable. Not more expensive. Charging BMW prices for the Taurus is expensive. Charging BMW prices for the BMW is value.

Paul S_3

Least expensive i meant as far as baseboard....theres a significant price difference from american made ci baseboard then copper fin tube baseboard ....plus the labor to install it....most customers regardless of what is more valuble as far as the product dont have the money to install ci basboard....as far as my work my quotes are probably the most expensive but my customers get the most value when they hire me .....compared to most of the contractors in this city of ours

Mark Eatherton

This homeowner has now become the permanent owner of this house for eternity. It's not salable in that condition without a discount of at least $50K to open up all the walls and repipe it properly.

Every single guest that walks in there is going to remark............."**** is that?"

Steamhead is absolutely correct. You cannot fix stupid.


Hatt, It's going to be his "reminder" for life that his GC and the sub who did the work were totally incompetent. I'd bet money he's going to pursue one or the other or both for the additional cost of making it work.

Paul, as others have said, nice save, but man, how embarrassing for the homeowner. I almost (key word ALMOST) feel sorry for him.. Ain't no paint gonna cover them pipes...

Albatros hydronics...

ME

LionA29

Make take is that I think the home owner wanted something different and thinks it will be one of those unique project. With every different ideas and design it can be called " art". So it's just a matter of opinion of what you like and the home owner. It's like store, clubs, office without ceiling and all you see is black coated roofing frames with a channels of cat5-6, fiber optics, conduits. It all goes past the naked eye.
So for some, that job maybe an eye sore and for some it can be " interesting" even something different.
That home owner enjoys @ Paul S's work and that's all that matters.
I hope I don't start any emotional outbursts.

Paul S_3

I dont feel sorry for them at all.....if they wouldve went ahead with my original quote last july...they wouldnt be in this mess...and they actually wouldve saved alot of money and have more comfort

vvzz

I also see terrible finish carpentry with skimpy stock moldings. I have a feeling the heating contractor is not the only spot where they cut corners...

KC_Jones

vvzz said:

I also see terrible finish carpentry with skimpy stock moldings. I have a feeling the heating contractor is not the only spot where they cut corners...

But they got granite counter tops! And that's all that matter....right?!

john p_2

Nice save is right....On the exposed pipes- they could & should be boxed in. It could be done and made to look half decent; shocked no one has mentioned this yet. Could be done with wood and cover with sheet rock and not even come all that far off the wall.....

warno

Sucks to be the homeowner but I must say you did a beautiful job on the plumbing. Very neat and clean install for the circumstances.

Paul S_3

Thank you....