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hot water boiler and system repipe.

Paul S_3
Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
edited March 2016 in THE MAIN WALL
Customer of mine was completely gutting and renovating there Brownstone in Bedford Stuyvesant Brooklyn. This was in july of 2015. I proposed 3 options for the contractor and homeowner, 1 was radiant in floor - 2 was Buderus panel rads with homerun system. 3- was series loop baseboards with individual zones. ...all with high efficiency mod cons.
Contractor and homeowner said i was ridiculously overpriced. They went with another contractor who was 50% cheeper on the baseboard option ..So this winter the homeowner called me back because the installer and a few other contractors couldnt figure out why there system wouldnt heat.one contractor installed a taco 0013 to "pump the water faster " he told this poor homeowner. The cheeper installer installed 2 atmospheric water boilers 70k btu. 1 for basement where the tenant lives 1 bedroom apartment which operated fine this winter besides the short cycling because of the oversizing heat load in apartment is 16k btu. For the main house This winter when the temp drop below 40f it could only maintain 55f the really cold spell we had near zero temps the main house was 47f. The installer ran 3/8" pex for 1st and 2nd floor one complete loop. With only 18ft of baseboard in first floor ( btu load calc 25k). And 16ft of baseboard on 3rd fl. (Load calc 24k btu). I had to add a significant amount of baseboard on both floors, abandon the 3/8" pex in the walls and run new exposed piping throughout home. The homeowner did not want any damage done to the newly renovated home. I ran a total of 4 seperate loops 2 for 1st ,2 for 2nd. I did what i could with the boiler, going back with a Lwco tomorrow. So when its all said and done customer paid almost double than my most expensive quote.
ASM Mechanical Company
Located in Staten Island NY
Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
347-692-4777
[email protected]
ASMHVACNYC.COM
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
SWEI

Comments

  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    Boiler before repipe
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,317
    You can pay me now or you can pay me later.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    Canucker
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    Wow, when you said exposed I figured a pipe along the baseboard.
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    edited March 2016
    They didnt want anything cut open....so i proposed this option...they wanted the heat to work...they had no heat this whole winter
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    They learned a lesson, hopefully.

    Sadly many people come to a site like this after its too late.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited March 2016
    Holy crap. What the hell is wrong with people.

    Cheap is best and only rich people can afford to do it twice.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    edited March 2016
    I love stories like this. Customers that complain about price and claim they have a cheaper contractor, I point to threads like these and let them make up their mind. After reading these horror stories, about 40% of those that initially hemmed and hawed about the price end up taking my quote.

    thread bookmarked :)
    SWEICanucker
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,111
    Looks great. I do have one question...did they put in granite counter tops in the kitchen?
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    njtommy
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    Yes they did put granite counter tops
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
    njtommyRich_49KC_Jones
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,516
    And do they have a late-model BMW in the driveway?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    njtommyRomanGK_26986764589
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,695
    You are aware that this customer will never tell "The Story" of how stupid he was ? People will be told that you are the best contractor and will look at the exposed piping .
    I applaud the fact that you helped him get a better system and actually heat his house . Not sure I would have touched it whilst not being allowed to get those pipes inside the walls or at a minimum behind some sort of detail . Unintended consequences can really hurt someone with the best intentions . Save the link to this discussion and post it on your website so folks will know you are not RESPONSIBLE for the UGLY that exists .

    Nice save , by the way .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Tim PotterMark EathertonCanucker
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited March 2016
    Nice corner details on that BB.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    Maybe the Homeowner likes the sight of copper or like the industrial looks. In time I think they might cover those pipes with a closet.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,524
    Poor design and poor execution tend to dominate many installations. They're always associated with the "cheaper price". Using 2 boilers for such a small load is wasteful and hardly energy efficient.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    @Paul S Are those the copper pipe find baseboards?
    Any reason why you didn't use cast iron baseboards?
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    Yes they are copper fin tube baseboard. ...cast iron baseboard around me is significantly higher in price plus the labor to install ...most customers want the least expensive ...i wish i had a better pic im in the process of a home renovation. ...which im installing 2 zone cast iron baseboard about 60 ft all together. ...
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
    LionA29njtommy
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    Thank you @Paul S.
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,522
    Question: Whats more expensive? Late model BMW or 96 Ford Taurus?
    Answer: Neither. The BMW is more VALUABLE. Not more expensive.
    You need to emphasize to your customers that you are more valuable. Not more expensive. Charging BMW prices for the Taurus is expensive. Charging BMW prices for the BMW is value.
    jonny88Mark EathertonRich_49
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    Least expensive i meant as far as baseboard....theres a significant price difference from american made ci baseboard then copper fin tube baseboard ....plus the labor to install it....most customers regardless of what is more valuble as far as the product dont have the money to install ci basboard....as far as my work my quotes are probably the most expensive but my customers get the most value when they hire me .....compared to most of the contractors in this city of ours
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,839



    This homeowner has now become the permanent owner of this house for eternity. It's not salable in that condition without a discount of at least $50K to open up all the walls and repipe it properly.

    Every single guest that walks in there is going to remark............."**** is that?"


    Steamhead is absolutely correct. You cannot fix stupid.


    Hatt, It's going to be his "reminder" for life that his GC and the sub who did the work were totally incompetent. I'd bet money he's going to pursue one or the other or both for the additional cost of making it work.

    Paul, as others have said, nice save, but man, how embarrassing for the homeowner. I almost (key word ALMOST) feel sorry for him.. Ain't no paint gonna cover them pipes...

    Albatros hydronics...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    Make take is that I think the home owner wanted something different and thinks it will be one of those unique project. With every different ideas and design it can be called " art". So it's just a matter of opinion of what you like and the home owner. It's like store, clubs, office without ceiling and all you see is black coated roofing frames with a channels of cat5-6, fiber optics, conduits. It all goes past the naked eye.
    So for some, that job maybe an eye sore and for some it can be " interesting" even something different.
    That home owner enjoys @ Paul S's work and that's all that matters.
    I hope I don't start any emotional outbursts.
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    edited March 2016
    I dont feel sorry for them at all.....if they wouldve went ahead with my original quote last july...they wouldnt be in this mess...and they actually wouldve saved alot of money and have more comfort
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
    LionA29SWEI
  • vvzz
    vvzz Member Posts: 39
    I also see terrible finish carpentry with skimpy stock moldings. I have a feeling the heating contractor is not the only spot where they cut corners...
    KC_JonesRomanGK_26986764589
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,111
    vvzz said:

    I also see terrible finish carpentry with skimpy stock moldings. I have a feeling the heating contractor is not the only spot where they cut corners...

    But they got granite counter tops! And that's all that matter....right?! ;)
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • john p_2
    john p_2 Member Posts: 364
    Nice save is right....On the exposed pipes- they could & should be boxed in. It could be done and made to look half decent; shocked no one has mentioned this yet. Could be done with wood and cover with sheet rock and not even come all that far off the wall.....
  • warno
    warno Member Posts: 229
    Sucks to be the homeowner but I must say you did a beautiful job on the plumbing. Very neat and clean install for the circumstances.
    Canucker
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    Thank you....
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company