Main Vents Where There Are None

anomalyjane

Hello! I just bought my first house 9 months ago and have been discovering all of the little quirks of my new (circa 1905) home's steam heat system. This winter, I've been trying to troubleshoot the water hammer that I get when the heat comes on, especially loudly in the morning. I also have two radiators upstairs that gurgle and spit water. From this forum I realized I needed to insulate my mains, so I've done about 80% of the length of those with fiberglass pipe wrap. I also turned down the pressuretrol to the recommended lower cut-in and cut-out. Meanwhile I came to realize that there are no main vents on my system. I've read this thread about making antlers, and I'm hoping to do that. I have a few question I would love to get help with:

1. My two mains are 16.5' and 18.5' long. There's only one existing nipple (outside diameter of 1.5") that could take a vent, but it's not ideally located (it's only 7.5' from the boiler on the 18.5' main). Can I connect the antlers to my mains where there are no existing Ts or other inlets? If so, I assume I need to cut out a small section of the main, thread the ends and somehow get a T in there. Is that on the right track? I have no experience with pipe fittings, but I'm very motivated to try to do this job myself as I can't quite afford a qualified technician right now. Is this difficult/better left to saving up for a pro?

2. If it is possible to add antlers, I think I'll use Gorton #1s, since the clearance above the end of my mains ranges only from 10.5" to 11.5". Any advice on how many I should do on each?

3. I have some other issues with my boiler.. the automatic water feeder isn't working (a plumber told me the pipes are probably clogged with sediment). Since it sounds like poor water quality can also be causing my water hammer, does it seem more important to try to fix that issue first, rather than try to do the main vents? The plumber added some water to the system using the nearby hot water tank as a short term remedy.

4. In case they're helpful, I'm including pics of the main ends, the above-boiler piping, the water gauge showing dirty water, and the one available T/nipple on my longer main.

I'd really appreciate any advice. Thank you!

pugdad

Should re post in steam section

anomalyjane

Hey pugdad! I think it is in there? Categorized it as Strictly Steam.. is there something else I need to do? Thanks!

vaporvac

You're good. I assume you have one pipe steam? Nny idea your rad's edr compared to your boiler sq ft of steam?

There should be a way to manually fill your boiler bypassing the autofill. I've never actually heard of a boiler without some way to fill it.. I also don't understand how clogged lines would keep it from filling. If that were the case you wouldn't get any condensate back to the boiler. Do you have slow returns? Does the boiler often shut down on Low water?
Many things can cause water hammer, usually mis-pitched pipes or rads and even a poorly piped Hartford Loop. Is there any chance you could take a pic from a bit further back showing all the near boiler piping?

I'll let others address the antler issue as I have a two-pipe and don't feel competent to help.

JUGHNE

If your water lines were clogged with sediment, it seems that your kitchen sink faucet would be clogged also. They both deal with fresh water.....need a picture of your water feeder.

Picture 180405 shows a tee, is that a return or supply line and is the boiler on the left or right side of the tee.

It is more important that your low water cut off works (LWCO) than the auto filler. The red button may test it for you.

Need pictures of the pipes returning to your boiler also.

Fred

Take a picture of the Auto water feed and its piping. I don't believe the water supply pipe could be clogged (unless it's old galvanized pipe and it still would not be 100% clogged). The valve inside the auto feeder may be failed
As for the hammer, can you tell where the hammer is located? is it along one of the Mains or at /below/near a radiator? Most likly one of the pipes is not pitched correctly to let the water run back in the right direction. It looks like one of your Mains, near the boier, running to the right side of your picture may be pitched back to the radiator for a few feet and then pitches down from there. Is that the case or just the way the insulation is on there? It looks like I see a drip leg on one of your mains but I'm not sure. Some better pics would help. In any case, make sure the Mains are both pitched with the high point above the boiler Header and have some pitch downward from there to where they drop down to a wet return (pipe below the boiler water line).
Make sure your radiators have a slight pitch back towards the supply side (where the steam pipe comes into the radiator) if a one pipe system or towards the drain pipe, opposite the supply pipe (if a two pipe system) If the hammer sounds like it is under the floor, at a radiator, try raising the entire radoator a 1/4" or so, then re-pitch it. Sometimes, a horizontal pipe under the floor can be pitched the wrong way or have no pitch at all due to the house settling a bit, over the years.
That pipe where you want to put a Main vent will not work. It appears to be ahead of all of your radiators and you want the main vent to be somewhere after the last radiator run out on the main. That way, all the air can be pushed out of the main. Putting in ahead of the radiators will just cause the vent to close when steam hits it and leave all the air in the remainder of the main, making your radiator vents (again if one pipe system) do all the work.
With the length of each Main, One Gorton #2 on each main will be plenty. You don't need an antler and you have plenty headroom for a Gorton #2.
After this heating season, when the weather breaks, try to find someone you can come and drill a location at the end of each Main and either Tap it for a 1/2" opening or weld a thread-o-let over the opening to allow you to put your Gorton vents in those locations.

anomalyjane

Thanks, vaporvac, JUGHNE, and Fred! Yes, I have a one pipe system.

Vaporvac, my boiler's steam sq foot is 271, and I just calculated the EDR of my rads to be 175. I'm not sure if I have slow returns.. how would I know? As far as I know the boiler hasn't shut down due to low water at all this winter. The water level seemed to stay right at the lower mark on the boiler that the previous homeowner or installer drew on with black marker (they labelled that 'HL'--not sure what that means). I'm adding an image of the water feeder and the piping near the boiler.

JUGHNE, pic 180405 is of the end of one of the mains (supply and return, since I've got a one-pipe system) and the boiler is to the left of that. I'm adding another pic showing some of the piping near the boiler but I can add more if that would help!

Fred, yeah, I'm not sure why I wouldn't be able to bypass the water feeder and just add water to the system manually. For some reason, when the plumber was here and looking at it he couldn't make it work. Guy from a reputable company, so I trusted that there was actually something not working right. There's a green LED on the back of the water feeder that's not lit. There's a button for manual feed on there too, and it made a sound like it was running when the plumber tried it. But it didn't sound like water was moving and it didn't appear to affect the water level according the sight glass. I'm assuming I'd want to test this when the boiler's not running, since there's no water in the tube when the system gets going?

It's hard to tell exactly where the water hammer is coming from.. it seems to be kind of spread around. But I think you're onto something about the radiators.. I checked all eight in my house, and four of them were perfectly level or pitched slightly the wrong way. So I'm going to work on those this afternoon. Thanks for info on main vent location... so here's another question for you: that main pipe (it's the 18' one) has three risers coming off it. One 7' away from the boiler, and the other two at the very very end of the main (no space after them or between for the vent). That existing nipple comes 6" after the first riser, then theres's about 10 feet of main pipe, then the other two risers at the very end. I think the best I can do would be to put the vent in closer to the end of the main, but it would still be in the same order--riser, vent, riser, riser. Since I can't get past those two risers at the end, do you think it's still better to put in the new tapping for the vent? I know they recommend putting the vent near the end of the main, but is that only so that you get past as many risers as possible, or does it also have to do with getting further away from the boiler?

Great, I'll plan to go with Gorton #2s. I'll have to investigate the pitch of the mains above the boiler a bit more.. if those are improperly pitched, how do I adjust them?

Steamhead

Those capped pipes used to feed radiators, but someone removed them, proving once again that you can't fix stupid.

We typically drill and tap the mains near the ends for main vents, unless we're taking the piping apart for some reason.

Do your mains slope upward from the boiler to the ends, or downward?

JUGHNE

Look like a one pipe Counterflow steam system.....The steam flows out to rads and the condensate water drains back to the boiler in the same pipe for the tire cycle. You have no returns connected to the end of the main? There appear to be drips on the two mains.

BobC

The way those valves are set water will never be added to that boiler, The two ovals I added to your photo are in series with the auto water feeder, one is on and the other is off so water can not flow no mater what the auto feeder wants to do.

The rectangular section is the manual feed valve that would feed water to the boiler, it is off now and that is it's normal position. If you want to feed water manually that is the valve to use.

The water level should be set between the two marks the installer put on the boiler, water should be added to bring the water level up.

Any luck localizing the water hammer? It could be a badly sloped steam pipe or a dip in a steam pipe that allows water to collect in that pipe.

Bob

vaporvac

" I'm assuming I'd want to test this when the boiler's not running, since there's no water in the tube when the system gets going?"
From this comment, am I to assume ALL the water leaves the sight glass when steaming? How quickly does it return?

Fred

The near boiler piping looks like it might be a counter flow system but at least one of the mains looks like it is pitched up, leaving the boiler then it looks like it pitches down after maybe 4 or 5 feet. If so, is there another drip leg on that main, towards the end of the main?
The goal of the Main Vent is to get as much of the air out of the main(s) as fast as possible so the steam can move into the radiator runs and the radiator vents will evacuate air out of the radiator runs and the radiators. Ideally you want the main vents after the very last radiator run but if you have absolutely no way to do that and there is no dry return after the last radiator run, put the vents as close to those last raadiator runs as possible (if there is room, put it inbetween the last two radiator runs. If there is a dry return after the last radiator run, put the vent on that dry return. In either case, that will get most of the air our of the mains.
Yes, you can drill and tap where you can for the vents.
As has been said, do walk the basement and figure out if any of the mains or radiator run-outs has sags that will allow water to pool. If not, make sure witchever way they pitch, that there is a drip leg that will allow water to drain back to the boiler.
Correct the pitch on the radiators.

anomalyjane

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! My boiler did just shut off because of low water, and the water feeder came on to try to refill, but still nothing happens. I heard it coming on and that's how I knew I had a problem. I've been losing a lot more water out of the system (through rad vents and apparently a leaky inlet valve on one of the rads) over the past couple of weeks.. not sure why it's happening now and wasn't happening before I reset the pressuretrol and repitched two of the four wrongly-pitched rads. Maybe I jiggled the inlet valve too much when lifting the rad to repitch. But that's a whole different topic! BobC, did you draw some ovals on my picture? I didn't see an attached pic. Fred or BobC, can you think of any reason why neither the feeder nor the manual feed valve would actually allow me to add water to the boiler to bring it back up to the right level? I tried all combos of valve positions and no luck. My immediate fix will have to be to use the hot water tank and hose, like the plumber did the first time, but I'm hoping for a better long-term solution.

I'm working on re-pitching the radiators and putting new vents on all of them. Will try to take the level to all the pipes asap, maybe tonight. I think I found one of the problem spots... there's one run down there that looks fairly level and someone notched out about 1.5" of one of the overhead joists for the pipe to fit in, to try to allow it to pitch correctly. But I don't think they pitched it enough.. that one is definitely water hammering.

Abracadabra

anomalyjane said:

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! My boiler did just shut off because of low water, and the water feeder came on to try to refill, but still nothing happens. I heard it coming on and that's how I knew I had a problem.

One of the service valves (on the outlet?) of the water feeder is closed. This prevents the water feeder from feeding water to the boiler when it kicks on.

BobC

Sorry about the missing image.

Bob

Abracadabra

Yes, one of the "auto feed valves" you have marked is closed. Therefore when the feeder tries to feed you won't get any water into the boiler. Also, the one valve you have marked as "manual feed" is not the manual feed. It shuts off all water, manual and to the feeder. The manual feed is the one you have a square around that is unlabeled.

anomalyjane

Thanks, Bob and Abracadabra! Yes, when I took this photo that was the position of the valves. Though since then I've tried opening all of the valves, including the unlabeled (manual feed) one and still nothing happens... can you think of any reason why the water would not actually start flowing and go into boiler?

anomalyjane

(there's definitely water in that supply line, btw... it's the same line that brings water to my bathroom)

Abracadabra

The only other thing that would block water from entering the boiler would be the backflow. Remove the cap on the drain for the feeder isolation ball valve on the bottom. See if you get water out of there with the manual valve open. Maybe a ball valve is faulty and the stem no longer turns the ball?

Fred

The other possibility is where the copper pipe transitions to black iron pipe at the bottom of the boiler. That area could be clogged with sediment/sludge. I think I see a union on that black metal pipe. Might be worthwhile to have your plumber check that out.

anomalyjane

Hey all, I've been slowly working on replacing the air vents on all of my radiators and pitching them all correctly... a quick question about drilling into the mains to put on the main vents in the basement: if I got a 1/2" tap, and a 1/2" tap guide (such as the one made by Big Gator), is this something a beginner could do?

I've watched a video of someone using a drill press to drill a pilot hole into a metal plate before using the tap to thread it... is that the same kind of process you would use with black iron pipe? Since I can't use a drill press on the pipe, I was thinking the tap guide could help me drill the hole straight. Do I need to be at all concerned about metal filings getting inside the pipe when the hole is being drilled? And do I need to use cutting oil? Considering the clearance I have above my main pipe (10.5" - 11.5"), should the Gorton #2s go straight into the new threaded hole, or should I try to raise it at all off the main with a short length of pipe?

Thank you for all of your help, everyone!