Circulator Pump is non function Bell + Gossett118844

Forrest_2016

Hi folks,
New to site hoping I can get some help. I have an old National 100 Series Gas Furnace with a Bell + Gossett 118844.
The furnace fires up, the registers get warm, but the pump is non function. I hear a buzzing which I'm guessing is the furnace trying to turn on the pump. Just recently I became aware that the pumps need occasional oil, so I assume this is the problem (wish I knew this). I mostly use my wood stove but when it gets into the single numbers I turn on the furnace. Hoping I can do this myself as I am out of work. I am not feeling the need at this point to get it going for the rest of the winter, I doubt it will be needed (I'm in MA, mild winter this year)

I took photos of the setup and numbered parts with pic numbers where necessary.

I'm wondering if I can swap it out for a newer pump and also how to go about doing this (drain, fill, bleed, etc) I'm pretty handy with tools , so any comments are appreciated.Thanks a lot.

Paul S_3

You can probably use a brand new pump...use the same pump though...might be easier that way because of where the pump is located....it may be the pump or it may be the aquastat relay..if its the pump that pump has 3 pieces...1: bearing assy 2: coupling 3: the motor...either one could be at fault like a siezed bearing assy due to lack of oil.....best way to know for sure is with electrical meter....good luck in that tight spot either way you go.....then you have to worry about purging the air out of system.

SWEI

The pump looks like a Series 100. It's probably repairable, but you may be able to replace it with a wet rotor design that would cost about the same or less money, and also reduce your electrical consumption.

If you can tell us a bit more about the system, we can recommend the best replacement option or suggest a repair. Are there multiple zones, or just one? Do the rooms have baseboard convectors, cast iron radiators, or something else? How big is the house?

JUGHNE

I would check for power to the pump first, it is possible the relay is not delivering the power to the motor.

It is possible that the coupling between the motor and pump is broken and jammed thereby stalling the motor.

In any mechanical failure event you have to remove the motor from the pump. The motor or the pump may be stuck. With the motor removed you can tell which.

Try that and check back please.

deadmansghost

Also when your repairing / replacing that pump, relocate the back flow preventer to upstream of both the feedwater pressure regulator and the regulator bypass valve.

Forrest_2016

My home has a basement and 1st and second floor. floors measure 30x33 feet. The furnace has 3 zones, but only 2 are in use for the 1st and second floors. The house has baseboard convectors.
Now I watched this video which seemed pretty helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5FRV4hseGQ
But of course that one is brand new and not hitched into a system.
I do have a voltmeter, I assume set it to ac 200. I will hitch the leads to the 2 leads to the circulator pump and I assume wait till it gets its signal (the buzzing sound I hear). is that the relay?

Do I need to drain the system in order to pull the pump apart?

Thanks so much for the help thus far.

JUGHNE

IIWM, I would do the electric test....if that is not the problem, then remove the motor from the bearing assembly and see if the motor or the pump is stuck. If you remove the bearing assembly you will have to drain the entire system (unless you have isolation valves some where).

Forrest_2016

I hooked up the meter to the 2 leads at the pump, flipped on the switch for the furnace and the meter immediately read 117-118, the reading stayed steady until the furnace let off some steam/water through the valve on Pic 3, numbered 4. I then shut the furnace down. It spewed about a quart of water at least.

SWEI

You may have a failed expansion tank (the gray silver one behind the back left corner of the boiler in the above photo.) Testing it properly requires isolation from the system and draining, but you can start by tapping on it with a screwdriver handle. The bottom half should be full of air and make a hollow sound. If you press the stem of the Schrader valve on the bottom and water comes out, it's toast. The pressure relief valve (#4 in your photo) should also be tested and could well need replacement. All of these things can be done at the same time you drain the system to repair or replace the failed circulator.

Forrest_2016

I taped on the expansion tank with the handle of a screwdriver and it doesn't sound hollow. The schrader valve is on the top and I pressed it and nothing came out. So at the moment I feel a bit overwhelmed, but want to continue.
I'm thinking of unbolting the motor from the coupling to see what is damaged there. I would assume the impeller part is sealed and won't leak. If so I guess I could see if the impeller moves and the condition of the coupling. Otherwise I guess it may be time to drain, I have no idea how to do that.
Thanks.

JUGHNE

Take out the 4 bolts that go INTO the motor. Then you will have access to the spring coupling. The part that needs the Allen wrench. Then you can see which part might be stuck. Sometimes working the motor or pump shaft back and forth with a little oil applied may free them up and buy you some time.

SWEI

Forrest_2016 said:

I taped on the expansion tank with the handle of a screwdriver and it doesn't sound hollow. The schrader valve is on the top and I pressed it and nothing came out.

So the tank is waterlogged, which is causing the PRV to expel water when the system heats up. As it cools down, the pressure drops, so the auto-fill adds more water. Over time, this will destroy anything ferrous -- most especially the boiler and the expansion tank, but the circulator volute is also susceptible.

Forrest_2016

I took the pump motor off today, thanks for the tip (Jughe) about the bolts that go into the motor. They came off very easily, as did the coupling. Put the motor on the bench and got some oil into some tight places. Stuck the screwdriver into the cooling fins and eased it back and forth, didn't take much and it came free. Strapped it down and plugged it in and it runs smooth, ran it for short amounts, then oiled, can turn the shaft with my fingers, feels healthy.
I looked at the oil reservoir for the impeller by lifting off the plate with the access hole that is over it and inside was a bunch of dried out junk, looked kind of metallic, but I guess it was the old oil sponge/string that was decayed. Vacuumed that out and squirted some oil in there as well as at the front of the shaft that holds the coupler. I'll let that sit for a bit and see if I can nudge it.

So Swei, I found the Schrader valve on the bottom, it was under a cap, so I have one top and bottom, the top is mounted to another contraption you can see in pic #2-side. I pushed on the bottom one and air pressure came out and a small amount of water spray/mist. I didn't relieve all the pressure, but it wasn't significant, felt like 10lbs or so.
Thanks.

JUGHNE

I assume that your motor has oil ports. You do not want to over oil the motor. Too much will get into the motor and leak out into the rubber motor mounts that you see on each end of the motor. If they get squishy then the motor will lower itself down causing the shafts to not line up. This will place extra wear on the coupler as it works more as a universal joint. Is the pump shaft seized? It will not spin as easy as the motor, but it you can get it to rotate fairly freely you could put all together and try operation. The oil packing felt you had is meant to be saturated with oil and lube the pump shaft. If you get it to run just be sure the shaft gets oil. That packing is available. But you can test run it for a bit.

You could test run it with it all assembled by using the jumper cord you used on the bench, this would not require the boiler to be on.

The air valve on top is on top of your air eliminator vent. If you depress that one you may get air and then water after it, that would be normal.

The air Schrader on the bottom of the tank should only have air in it. That is a bladder tank with air on the bottom separated from the water on the top by means of a membrane that stretches to compensate for the expansion of the water.
Does your pressure gauge work? what is the reading when cold?

Forrest_2016

I probably went bit oil happy on the motor, maybe I can blow some out with compressed air. I guess there is no wick on the motor. Maybe I have damaged it.
The gauge has 2 hands, Lower hand on 90 upper on 12.
The bearing shaft/impeller seem to be stuck pretty tight, can't get it to rock so far.
So sounds like the expansion tank is no good too. (?)
Thanks

JUGHNE

If you turn the motor upside so excess oil could drain out of the oil tubes you would probably be OK.

If you leave the coupling on the pump shaft you would have a handle to rock it.

Forrest_2016

Way ahead of you (lol) motor upside down, and running.
Coupling is still on the pump shaft, I tried tapping it lightly back and forth, so far nothing, but I will let it soak over night, maybe it will free up.
Thanks

Forrest_2016

I tried to nudge the coupling/bearing/impeller assembly again today and it is frozen. The motor is also suspicious. It almost always always goes when the switch is thrown, but when I first had it going it would not turn and groan a bit (brushes?) early this evening I have not encountered that problem.
So the motor seems to turn clockwise naturally, but if if I spin CCW and give it power while it is spinning it will go CCW (weird) If I give it a spin CW it will go CW.
I'm thinking I should replace it all which I guess means draining the system as I have no shutoff valve on both sides like the video.

SWEI

There's a centrifugal starter switch in that motor.

Forrest_2016

So would you say the motor needs replacing if you can hold the shaft in a certain location, plug it in and it won't turn? Like a dead spot or something. Even not holding it in this one position it will just hum. Other wise it rotates fine, ran it for 6 hours hoping it would lose the "dead spot"

Steve Thompson (Taco)

Here's the deal - it is a split phase motor and as mentioned has a centrifugal start switch (some are capacitor start - not yours as I don't see the hump on the side of the motor). When you power the motor this switch is closed, sending power to the start windings. As the motor starts to spin the centrifugal switch opens, de-energizing the start windings, and the motor runs via the run windings.

So, if it runs by manually (requiring hand spinning the shaft) when the motor is powered you either have a dirty or bad contact on the centrifugal switch or a bad start winding.

Be careful about some of the comments about a complete replacement. For example, if you have an old mono-flo system a variable speed or high head/low flow circ will not work.

If it was me, I might take the motor to a motor shop and get an estimate on a repair or replacement (probably not worth the cash and time though). If replacing the complete circ make sure the replacement has a similar curve to the B & G 100. Most of us circ manufacturers have the right replacements in either wet rotor (seal less) or mechanically sealed versions.

Consider calling in a professional heating guy - might be time to check out the whole system - save a few bucks and provide more comfort with a few tweaks by one of these experts - just sayin.

Good luck and BTW, great pictures - made offering advice much easier.

JUGHNE

If you have the motor running up to speed and then unplug it you should hear a definite click as it slows down, just before it stops spinning. That click is start switch closing and putting the start winding back into the circuit for the next start.

At this point you have nothing to lose by taking the rear end bell of the motor and you will see a "fork" riding on a plastic pulley looking ring. The ring is spring loaded and should slid on the shaft in & out and moves the switch "fork". As the motor comes up to speed centrifugal force throws the ring to disengage the switch. I wouldn't put any money into the motor unless you get the pump to rotate.

I would heed Steve's good advice for sizing a replacement.
Also draining the system is a good time to check your expansion tank. Spring is almost here!

Forrest_2016

Thanks for chiming in Steve. What I would like to do is replace the motor, bearing housing etc with exact replacements, but new of course. Right now what I would like to do, which seems like the next logical step is to drain the system so I can remove the bearing housing/impeller. I'm guessing the drain is that faucet in the picture attached on the furnace side. I would think it would also need to vent somehow. I am doing this myself as I am out of work.

Forrest_2016

JUGHNE said:

If you have the motor running up to speed and then unplug it you should hear a definite click as it slows down, just before it stops spinning. That click is start switch closing and putting the start winding back into the circuit for the next start.

At this point you have nothing to lose by taking the rear end bell of the motor and you will see a "fork" riding on a plastic pulley looking ring. The ring is spring loaded and should slid on the shaft in & out and moves the switch "fork". As the motor comes up to speed centrifugal force throws the ring to disengage the switch. I wouldn't put any money into the motor unless you get the pump to rotate.

I would heed Steve's good advice for sizing a replacement.
Also draining the system is a good time to check your expansion tank. Spring is almost here!

+++++++++++++++
I powered the motor up and there is no "Click" when I power it down. I know the click you mean, I have heard it on other electric motors. I have also seen rebuild kits on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Gossett-Motor-Rebuilding-KIT-for-ALL-1-12-hp-111034-Series-100-/171315791827?hash=item27e33787d3:g:U2cAAOxy9X5TYQjm

Is this fork the item in the upper left corner?

Thanks

Forrest_2016

I opened up the motor back end (sealed end-no shaft)

Then the front with the shaft, don't see what you mentioned Jughne?

Forrest_2016

Front end pic

JUGHNE

The centrifugal switch we speak of is a mechanical moving device that pushes on an electrical switch such as in your Ebay picture. You appear to have neither. However on the back bell plate there is a small solid state device with 3 wires. Perhaps that is the new start winding switching device......unless there is a push to reset button on the back side that we don't see.

Non mechanical current sensing relays and potential relays are used on some compressors to drop out the start winding and/or start capacitor when motor is up to speed. That device could be a variation of that and it may have failed (unless it is a reset button on the other side.)
In any event, the pump still does not turn .

Forrest_2016

I drained the system today, I opened valve 2 in picture 3, got a couple gallons and then seemed to stop, opened the valve on the side of the furnace, the knob is small and sort of spun, so I used vice grips, drained about a trash can full of water, started off a bit black, but went clear fairly quick.
Removed the bearing housing/impeller slowly as I was expecting more water, but only a bit came out. Yep, that is frozen solid. So now to buy replacements and next will be that expansion tank and making that faucet drain better.

JUGHNE

Your small faucet drain is considered the boiler drain valve. That looks to be an original, I'm surprised you got it to open at all. That design is not considered the best, (some say worthless).
I would unscrew it and install a 3/4" X 3" black nipple with a full flow ball valve with a 3/4" male x 3/4" male hose fitting and a brass cap. As you take it apart you will discover the improvement made by replacing it with the ball valve.

Then remove the expansion air tank. It should have no water in it.....if it does it can be pretty heavy.....be careful.....if full of water that will not come out, then it is toast!!
If not then: with it laying on the floor connected to nothing, I would put 30 PSI of air in the Schrader valve......this is for testing purposes ONLY.......see if it has about 30 PSI 24 hours later. If so then the bladder is probably OK. If good then the charge for the tank will be what ever your fill valve operating pressure would be set at. If a one story house that is usually 12PSI. (Someone here will please jump in and advise what is needed for a 2 story house.....I don't have that at my fingertips)
.......Note; it should be 12PSI for a 2 story house....just did some research.

That tank was connected to the bottom of the "air purger" device, no moving parts inside, just so there is no sludge/junk in it.

On top of the air purger is the air float valve. This valve has had a busy life since it was installed on day one. It has a float inside that when has enough air collected above it pushed the float down and opens a very small air discharge valve on the top.
You can remove that air float valve and shake it to loosen the float. For the money involved and the importance of this device I would recommend a new one.......but if you are determined than you could soak it in vinegar for 24 hours. However if you need to change it that may involve draining the system or a real quick change out under pressure.

At this point I would guess you have valves 4 and 5 off. #2 is the pressure reducing fill valve that maintains your 12 PSI in the system. Somewhere on it is usually a water inlet screen that can plug with sediment. This is a good time to inspect that. That is a pressure regulator so the top cap will be under spring pressure. I cannot tell from your picture if there is a separate screen there or not. You can goggle any part number to get a break down of internal parts. I would go for that....a lot of info available....the more you learn about this system the more you can repair/adjust yourself.

As for a replacement pump for the B&G 100 you should ask Steve (Taco).....maybe send him a PM about it. Not many factory reps will respond here for the little guys like us and he and his company should get something out of this IMO.

Forrest_2016

Thanks Jughe,
1. So something like pictured to replace the boiler drain valve?

2. Now the expansion tank when checked from the valve at the bottom did mist out some water, wasn't a lot of pressure in the tank maybe 10lbs. So I am guessing that needs to be replaced. I'm thinking I have what is referred to as a "30".

3. I see the Taco 007 seems to be a very common circulator pump and may do the job although I don't feel knowledgable enough to make the call. I figure if I just replace what was there and maintain it, that it might be the best bet.

4. I looked at my air valve and it is not labeled, looks a lot like a "Maid-o-Mist #7". How I determine getting a proper one?

Thanks a lot again.

Steve Thompson (Taco)

The wet rotor (sealess) replacement is our 007. Nice flat performance curve so you will not have any system performance issues. Same flange type too. Once the water is drained from the pump a relatively simple change. New circ comes with new flange gaskets.

Please make sure it is installed in the right flow direction (there is an arrow on the pump volute body).

We also have a model 110 that more looks like the ITT 100 you already have (more dough then the 007).

Forrest_2016

Thanks Steve, by my information given (circulator pump on the return) that the 007 would work? My old B & G rotated clockwise.
Appreciate the input.

JUGHNE

1. So something like pictured to replace the boiler drain valve?

Unscrew the existing boiler drain valve.....it may have a long neck/shank on it because the boiler threads are maybe an inch behind the jacket. The straight nipple and straight ball valve will let you drain more sediment out than the valve you picture. Also if ever plugged you can stick a small pipe in it to clear any blockage

3. Now the expansion tank when checked from the valve at the bottom did mist out some water, wasn't a lot of pressure in the tank maybe 10lbs. So I am guessing that needs to be replaced. I'm thinking I have what is referred to as a "30".

Remove the tank from the piping. Is it full of water? swirl it around......if no water inside I would try the 30 PSI of air and test as stated.

4. I see the Taco 007 seems to be a very common circulator pump and may do the job although I don't feel knowledgable enough to make the call. I figure if I just replace what was there and maintain it, that it might be the best bet.

(Take Steve's recommendation, he wants happy customers, don't worry about rotation.....look at the arrow...point towards the boiler. follow the directions with the pump for shaft orientation and motor J-box location)


4. I looked at my air valve and it is not labeled, looks a lot like a "Maid-o-Mist #7". How I determine getting a proper one?

A common replacement would be a B&G #67.....if you remove yours and shake it you should hear a float move up and down, if that happens then remove the top cap completely and blow thru it. With it upside down no air should pass.......up right air should pass freely. For budget considerations if it doesn't function as described you could try the overnight vinegar soak.

When you refill the system have the cap on tight....this keeps junk from entering the vent. Once system is filled then loosen the cap one turn to let air out slowly.....fast may let junk into it.

Your pressure reducing/fill valve may have a plug on the bottom that will remove the water strainer.

[ Just a note, usually the pump in located on the supply after the air tank/purger/air vent.....someday when time and money permit you may consider repiping....but for now just get the thing working the way it was]

Get this done and check back......there is more to check out

Forrest_2016

1. Today I removed the old boiler drain valve, the boiler thread are only about a 1/2 inch behind the jacket so I don't think I will need an extension, just need to buy the ball valve. Friend mentioned they come in metal or some kind of plastic, which should I buy?

2. Took off the expansion tank and it was full of water. It is an Amtrol/Extrol. I'm thinking the replacement would be the EX-30 (102-1)

3. Took off the air float valve and I gave it a shake and it was loose, guess it is ok.

4. Pic 2. I haven't touched valves 4 + 5. 5 appears to be closed, 4 appears to be open.
5. Thanks

JUGHNE

1. Today I removed the old boiler drain valve, the boiler thread are only about a 1/2 inch behind the jacket so I don't think I will need an extension, just need to buy the ball valve. Friend mentioned they come in metal or some kind of plastic, which should I buy?

Brass or steel.......NO plastic

2. Took off the expansion tank and it was full of water. It is an Amtrol/Extrol. I'm thinking the replacement would be the EX-30 (102-1)

If you cannot dump the water out, you need new.

3. Took off the air float valve and I gave it a shake and it was loose, guess it is ok.

Do the blow thru test with your mouth

4. Pic 2. I haven't touched valves 4 + 5. 5 appears to be closed, 4 appears to be open.

Valve 5 is the manual quick fill cold water line that bypasses the 12PSI auto fill valve. If you open it you should get full water pressure coming out any ports that are open.

If Valve 4 is open and no water is flowing then your auto fill/regulator valve is not working. With the ports you have open it should be trying to fill the system up to 12 PSI.

Item 3 is a back flow preventer/check valve it should have an opening on the bottom.

Item 2 is the auto fill valve, as said if #4 is open water pressure should be going into it and filling the boiler (all over the floor actually).

Exercise valves 4 &5 open and shut so you know they work. Then with both 4&5 closed open the bottom of item 2 if there is a plug there. Furnish a better picture of item 2. That must work to refill the system to 12 PSI. Google the part number for an instruction sheet.

Forrest_2016

I put some air pressure into the expansion tank, couldn't seem to get my gauge to work to tell me the pressure (I tried 2) Shot a bit more pressure in and some black water shot out on my shoe. It is old it is rusty, I think it should probably be replaced don't you?

Took off the air float valve and tried to blow through the bottom, couldn't even with the shroeder valve pushed in.

Right now I have valves 4 + 5 closed (pic #2), if I turn 5 I hear water running, I have not opened up valve 2 as the only way in is from the top.

I'm back to thinking of just replacing the Bell + Gossett, I'd like to finish this (if I only knew what I was doing-lol)

Thanks so much for your patience.

Forrest_2016

1. Took a closeup of item number 2 today.
2. Ordered a new B+G Motor and bearing housing/impeller.
3. Took out the shroeder valve on the bottom of the expansion tank, looked ok. I was thinking the light mist of water that came out was due to condensation as the tank appeared to hold air just fine although my gauged didn't seem to attach to it to get a reading.

JUGHNE

If you have valve 4 on you should have water flowing thru item 2. You can loosen the big union nut on the right side of item 2 and when valve 4 is open you should have water there. Your fill valve is maybe plugged. If water is up to it then you could shut #4 off and remove the screws on the top of 2...it will be spring loaded. Maybe full of junk probably, replace it.

The expansion tank should hold your 30 psi test pressure overnight. Get a tire gauge that works. If good then it should have 12 PSI when reinstalled.

The air vent should pass air when you have it upside down and blow into the bottom.

You should have a pressure & temperature combination gauge somewhere on the boiler.

On the top right rear of the boiler is a pressure relief valve.....what does it say on the tag attached?

Go to the "main site" at the home page here and look for system help concerning hot water heating.

Forrest_2016

1. I installed the new circulator motor and bearing housing/impeller, it went well. Before I did I checked to see that it rotated the same as the old one, it did and was certainly more powerful. The new bearing housing is maintenance free, but the motor still requires a oil (I've read 20 drops a season).

2. I emptied the water out of the expansion tank. filled it with 25 lbs of pressure and left it over night and it maintained the 25 lbs of pressure, reinstalled hand tight leaving 12lbs of pressure in the tank.

3. I bought a newer float valve as mine seemed clogged. I got a Taco 400 hy-vent. Hope this is ok.

4. I found cleaning instructions as you recommended on the Watts S1156F auto fill valve and went to give it a clean, really gunked up and the lever at the top was frozen, got it free but the diagram is shot, see pic. I'm looking for a replacement diaphragm kit but have not found one so far. If the entire valve needs replacing is there solder involved?
-thanks

JUGHNE

The inlet to that has a union fitting......the outlet of the device before that (backflow preventer) also has a union fitting. If you find a new pressure regulator that has female threads on both ends, then get a 1/2" brass nipple to go in between.

Use 2 wrenches for any of this or you may learn to solder as one of the male adaptors get twisted off.

Forrest_2016

Thanks Jughe, I bought a new one, same brand/model as the old one, applied a little heat and the old one came right out. I'm going to flush some water through a little before I install the new one.
Thanks