Confusion Abounds (but maybe only in my head) Boiler Replacement

Richard_DHd

Hey all.

I am about to replace a couple of 150K BTU Utica Boilers, one from flaw (leak in steam chest above waterline), the other age.

First thanks to all, a wealth of information has convinced me that going with Utica again would not be in my best interest. (And at least one of them is onlyl 15 years old and so...)

So my decision at this point is to go with Williamson Boilers, because, not only here, but also via my supply house, I am being told they're basically Weil-McClains in disguise, right down to the manuals.

HERE though, arises my questions/confusions. After calculating EDRs and etc, turns out the first one was over-sized, not dramatically, but some, the other is actually right. They are being replaced (unless you now give me a good reason to spend the extra for Weil-McLain proper) with Williamson GSA-125 and GSA-150.

When I did the smaller one 15 years ago I did not really make many/any changes to the header because it met all the requirements of height above water line, the old boiler (oil) had been working fine for 20+ years, and it didn't seem necessary. Now, based on my reading here, I should ... OK ...

I am trying to get most of the parts on the order from the supply house with the actual boilers, and trying to make a list is making my head hurt.

Here are my confusions -- many of the posts here suggest that these boilers have 3" tappings for steam, but the spec sheets I have show and 2 1/2" tappings. Currently I have 2" mains, vented and (beyond the amount of steam going up my chimney and making a pretty picture) no issues generating heat (even through the recent low temps) to all the connected rads.

I can, build a new header, but wonder if I really "need" to. Where I am not saying money is NO issue, the 2" header on these systems now is working well. IF I use both 2 1/2 take-off's on these boilers (as you all recommend) I really have to UP the header to 3" and then have the 2 x 2" mains come off that? Right?

The pictures attached are the boiler (in my basement-the first to be replaced) that I Installed 15 years ago (it's got notes on it for my dad who wanted to see it at the time). I had not yet read/bought all Dan's books at that point (I have now) so I didn't realize how it should be sized and believed the contractor who gave me the first estimate (which was not, well, even remotely affordable) and installed the size as recommended on the quote (and no, he did not look at the connected radiation).

As you can see, there is but 6' of clearance from my basement floor to the rafters and less than that where the mains come in (I have hit my head . . . ) so, if I up-size the header to a 3" and then bring the 2" mains down into it I should be good, right? I don't think I have the room to do a drop header, and maybe not really the money.

I called Dave at DL to possibly pick his brain (which I even suggested I'd pay for) before I get too deep in this.

Most of this makes 'inherent' sense to me, and 15 years ago, when i embarked upon what I felt was a scary journey into this arena my dad told me he was not surprised. Turns out, I come from a long line (on both sides) of Dead Men. My parents (back then) suggested that I got all the hereditary plumbing skills.

Thanks for suggestions --

Richard

KC_Jones

The manual for both of those boilers specifies a 2 1/2" header as the minimum so if you currently have 2" you need to change the header. The manual specifies 2 1/2" piping, it doesn't say the tapping is 2 1/2". The tapping is indeed 3" on those boilers, in the Weil Mclain manual this is shown on page 38 quite clearly. It says 1 connection, but there is indeed 2 connections, they just supply a plug for the second on with the boiler. It's your choice to use both tappings or the minimum 1 tapping. It is about cost, but the 2" versus 2 1/2" cannot be argued those are the minimum specs. If you go one tapping and you are debating between 2 1/2" and 3", personally I would go 3" the cost differential at that point is minimal. The bigger expense is if you talk about using both tappings drop headers etc.

Richard_DHd

Hatterasguy said:

Richard_DHd said:

HERE though, arises my questions/confusions. After calculating EDRs and etc, turns out the first one was over-sized, not dramatically, but some, the other is actually right. They are being replaced (unless you now give me a good reason to spend the extra for Weil-McLain proper) with Williamson GSA-125 and GSA-150.

Before we discuss how to pipe them, let's start here.

What are the connected EDR loads for each boiler?

Since you have history on the current boilers, what is their performance? How much pressure do they build on a cold day............if you know?

Did either of the two of them EVER cycle on pressure?

A bit at a time ... One did (mine) the other did not (neighbor) cycle on pressure

The larger which never cycles on pressure peforms well, and other than cycling on pressure the one that 'will become' smaller also performed/s well.

Richard_DHd

KC_Jones said:

The manual for both of those boilers specifies a 2 1/2" header as the minimum so if you currently have 2" you need to change the header. The manual specifies 2 1/2" piping, it doesn't say the tapping is 2 1/2". The tapping is indeed 3" on those boilers, in the Weil Mclain manual this is shown on page 38 quite clearly. It says 1 connection, but there is indeed 2 connections, they just supply a plug for the second on with the boiler. It's your choice to use both tappings or the minimum 1 tapping. It is about cost, but the 2" versus 2 1/2" cannot be argued those are the minimum specs. If you go one tapping and you are debating between 2 1/2" and 3", personally I would go 3" the cost differential at that point is minimal. The bigger expense is if you talk about using both tappings drop headers etc.

OK...Now I get that. I was presuming (wrongly) that the tapping was the same size as the recommended header/riser size

Since this confrims the header is going to grow up, well, then 3" it is.

Richard_DHd

Thank you both .. that is what i got. Now I'm sitting here reading about headers and looking at pictures to determine if I"m going to try and do a drop header

Richard_DHd

OK...so, I have embarked now on this and so far so good--with questions.

OK, you guys really know so, I had every intention of doing two risers, but I have had NO success at all getting the plug out of the right-hand tapping in order do do this. Your recommendations let me to 3" riser/header and you can see in the pic what I've got so far, but I'm wondering if this will be sufficient? Is there some trick to getting this plug out of the tapping?

Thanks for the 'drop riser' suggestion, it is making life much easier ...

EzzyT

Penetrating thread lubricant, torch on the plug until it gets red hot then wrench it out

Richard_DHd

So PB Blaster (or is there something better) and then the torch...I'll give that a try tonight (annoyingly enough, I have an away project today so I won't be able to do much till tonight. And should I presume this is the same for the other plug(s) that I might need to remove (the return tapping).

EzzyT

That should work. That's how I get plugs out of new and old boilers

Richard_DHd

Ezzy--you've been a great help! Thanks (And I'm presuming by this that you really want me to do that second riser )

Paul48

In your picture.....That union is not tight ....right?

Richard_DHd

Tight as in? Pipes to union are indeed tight, union to itself is hand tight.

Paul48

Maybe an illusion, but it would appear the mating surfaces of the union are way off. With that piping arrangement, there is an incredible amount of leverage being applied to the boiler. Be mindful of level, plumb, and pipe support. You don't want the boiler hanging on the pipes, or the pipes hanging on the tapping.

Richard_DHd

I think it's an optical illusion ... because right now things are sloped and pitched right too and to my view of the picture they are all backwards. There are swing joints going on (although I just realized I need one more) to make sure things stay right.

Thanks to all here, I am getting confirmation that I'm proceeding in a correct fashion. (I've done this before but never had to rebuild a header.)

EzzyT

@Richard_DHd yes the second riser off the boiler would be best and proper way to pipe that header. I see you have a support hanger on the header but also install hangers on the horizontal piping from the risers going into the header

Richard_DHd

Yes, there are a number of hangers that still need done..but I ran out of strap last night (just about (pardon the pun) the same time I ran out of steam).

Paul48

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/mTqxdDL55zGZesI.JrH.aw--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9OTA7cT05NTt3PTkw/http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OP.8E9eIVRtJxnj6g100C100&pid=Ads&w=90&h=90

SWEI

Richard_DHd said:

So PB Blaster (or is there something better) and then the torch...I'll give that a try tonight

Make sure you give the penetrant time to work. It burns quite readily and will smoke the place up something fierce.

Paul48

Have you tried a couple foot cheater on your wrench?

Richard_DHd

Was planning to use penetrant tonight then break apart in the AM. Also yes, tried cheater bar and I turned the whole boiler.

Robert O'Connor_12

I believe WM has a giant that uses a 6'ft chain tong to make up those 2nd riser, skim, and return tapping...lol
It sounds like he needs a bigger wrench!
You shouldn't need anything but that to take the plug(s) out.
Especially on a new boiler.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

KC_Jones

When I bought mine in 2014, that plug was in a plastic bag with all the other parts. None of the tappings in my block were plugged. I think it depends on how the supplier orders it for you. I had my ordered disassembled (except block).

Richard_DHd

We shall see this morning. Got the Blaster last night and sprayed all ... and my house smells less than pleasant from that coming up from the basement ... so hopefully ... but I'm with Robert (who btw has a great last name) as on a new item they seem overtly tight!

Richard_DHd

OK...so i've been MIA ...

1) As god is my witness, the plugs in the williamson were not coming out even with an excessive amount of leverage on the wrenches. So, you won't be generally happy about it, but there's only 1 3" riser on my install.

2) Will post pictures soon, but don't give me too much guff over what I had to do to the mains to connect them. It only looks like I tied the pipe in knots ...

3) It's working quite well, and silently, and it's due to get it's 3rd skimming this week sometime.

4) Most importantly short cycles are gone and even in a boiler I have to believe still needs a skimming, i have little or no surging of the water line.

Lastly -- thank you all for the advice, much of it was taken and worked well (even if almost all of it cost me money) -- I think my grandfathers would be pleased (as official "dead men" they are) ... and again, not too much guff on my take-offs to the mains -- I had field conditions that I had no way to change.

Oh, and last note, took the jacket off the old boiler and found what may have started as a small crack but became a quite large one on the top left hand side ... and nothing in my head gives me reason to think there was a good reason. (the inside of the boiler itself actually looked pretty good.) Oh well.

BobC

If it's quiet and working well it sounds like your efforts paid off.

Bob

Richard_DHd

So here they are ... in no particular order but with some description:
From the front, Control Side Wet Return/Flush/Drain, Control Side skim port, Header from below, Header from Control Side, Header to equalizer, Header, Wet return, Hartford, Wide from Front.

And yes, optical illusions abound