We hire the unhirable

HeatingHelp

We hire the unhirable

When I was still doing seminars I would ask for a show of hands of those who were under 30 years old. I'd get a couple of waves, but that was about it. Not much interest in working this hard.

Read the full story here

Burnerjack

This business is a lot of things. Forgiving isn't one of them.
Like most endeavors, it requires a protracted "learning curve" fraught with pain, quite unpleasant working conditions, great unhappiness, whether from a frustrated and cold customer or a frustrated employer that has a greater and greater difficulty in justifying the effort when considering the payout. As most employees do too.
New blood is in short supply as is the revenue. The headache/dollar ratio is just too great for all but the borderline insane.
In short, paraphrase somebody somewhere: "IF YOU PAY THEM, THEY WILL COME."
My boss said to me one day "I just want to go home!" I laughed and replied "I say that every morning." But we stay and slog on...

Answerman

Very entertaining read, as always! But I'm curious Dan, with that anecdote at the beginning, are you implying that you (or your friend) wouldn't hire an otherwise qualified and competent worker simply because they use recreational drugs (probably pot) in their free time?

Not trying to start a political discussion, but just seems silly to me.. I'm of the opinion that as long as it doesn't affect their job, and they're not hurting anyone, what people do in their free time is their business.. I personally can't stand the stuff, but in my experience, whether or not someone uses pot in their free time (or for that matter, beer), has very little to do with their competence or quality of character.

Edit: I take that back about beer- while I do have some good friends who are teetotalers, in general I'd probably trust someone just a smidge less if they don't like beer..

DanHolohan

The way it worked out, my friend didn't hire him, and the main reason was that the otherwise-qualified guy was dopey enough to try to get my friend to help him fool himself.

vvzz

Great article, Mr. Holohan! I think this applies to trade jobs in general. It's sad, but schools make it sound second grade compared to a college degree and a paper pushing job. And here in Massachusetts you need 3 years of bringing older guys coffee just to be allowed to take a journeyman exam.

DanHolohan

Thanks, vvzz. I tried to pronounce your name but I kept dribbling on my shirt. ;-)

Joe_124

Before we start to complain how lazy the new breed of plumbers is. Lets take a look at our industry. Most are one man shops who charge what their grandfathers charged fifty years later. They stay one man shops. There is no business sense. They charge only what the next guy does. They have no clue to what even a breakeven price is. I'm no accountant. When I started my business, I was the one man shop. Putting down every successful company. I too wondered how come I am loosing money every day and working day and night. So I did something for the past 18 years. I took every accounting and business class. I sat through classes where guys were charging what it cost to be in business, not the going rate. I must of spent over 200K. Now these guys who are complaining that everyone is lazy. Call me a rip off. We want the cheapest labor, that will work day and night for no more then $10.00 an hour. We don't want to train them because they might leave. No benefits. Why would anyone want to work in our industry. I have plumbers that make over 100K full benefits and a retirement. They are young and they work like mules to make this all work. I have guys that have been with me for 16 years now. Stop blaming the young generation. When they can go to a food store and make more than a plumber or hvac tech. Invest in your employees. The ROI is awesome. Better you train them and they leave. Then not train them and they stay.

October Home

Maybe our professions should consider an aggressive campaign of recruiting young women. After all, an office isn't for everyone. Me? I'd be suicidal if I had to spend my working life in an office. Maybe there are other women who feel the same way.

My father was a race horse trainer. He never hired women as stable grooms. Never! Until he hired his first one. Then he never hired men. "You tell them to be there at 4 a.m. and they're there at 4 a.m. And they don't show up drunk." <<me translating from Spanish>>

I have two young men in my life. My son, age 21 and my nephew, age 26. They both face (too?) many choices about their futures but neither, despite my encouragements, will consider building science professions.

Oh well.

Arlene

DanHolohan

Arlene! When did you son get to be 21? Wasn't he just a baby the other day? Gosh.

Dave_132

We often forget the struggles and failures we experienced when we entered this profession. So often is the case we would like to think of ourselves as being born in a one room log cabin which we built ourselves. We quickly forget those who gently put us back on the tracks and chose not to strip us of our dignity but rather preserve it.
Our young people today need encouragement as well as training. When this happens there will be a quickening of pride and an increase effort to learn more as there confidence grows.

a_good_plumber_corp

You can also thank our wonderful education system. The New York City school system omitted shop classes altogether. They have a few specialty schools where they send the non academic or uncooperative students. This way they are out of the main stream. When I went to school here we had wood shop, metal shop, automotive shop and housekeeping for the girls. The message they send to today's students is go to college or tough, figure it out yourself. It's sad i can't get anyone with a half a brain and a good attitude to work.
Warren S.

ChrisJ

a_good_plumber_corp said:

You can also thank our wonderful education system. The New York City school system omitted shop classes altogether. They have a few specialty schools where they send the non academic or uncooperative students. This way they are out of the main stream. When I went to school here we had wood shop, metal shop, automotive shop and housekeeping for the girls. The message they send to today's students is go to college or tough, figure it out yourself. It's sad i can't get anyone with a half a brain and a good attitude to work.
Warren S.

Wait,
Have the vocational technical high schools shut down? Last I knew all the ones in my area were still open? Same as when I went, half day school, half day shop of a shop of your choosing.

I would assume NY has a similar setup?

Nathan_6

I have found that I prefer to hire the untrained trainable individual as in my experience the others come with too much baggage and bad habits (tend to cut to many corners for my liking). I ran a nonprofit youth ministry for a couple years where after school I would teach teens to weld , solder, troubleshoot and repair cars, motorcycles, bikes, etc. We would also try and get teens in summer and after school jobs with local businesses so they could gain some real world experience. Well we had trouble getting teens to participate regularly as they were to involved in sports, facebook, twitter and online gaming to come hangout, learn and work with their hands. But the saddest thing was when we tried to help find work for those teens who really wanted to learn and work the Child labor laws worked as a roadblock to helping them find work. infact the only industry really open to teens is the food industry. so instead of teens being able to get real life work experience in a trade they are getting trained to ask do you want cheese with that. I grew up in the heating industry so I was fortunate to be able to work and learn at a young age. At age 13 I was working in the fish canneries so I could purchase my first car at age 14 I couldn't get a license till 16 but I owned my car and was ready. :-) The point is now a contractor cannot hire a highschool kid for the summer or weekend because they cannot touch power tools or cutting tools they cannot be on ladders they must get so many breaks etc. etc. The rules were set up to protect the kids from being taken advantage of but in my mind if I learned a trade or figured out a trade I didn't want to do while in highschool That was a priceless gift even if it was earned with low wages and long hours. I got an 18 year old fresh out of highschool working for me now. He has a lot to learn and some days It feels like we are going backwards but he wants to learn and has a great work ethic so I'll keep him. The problem I think is more then just a lack of trade schools, low wages or long hours it is also a moral and society issue. We have made blue collar workers and blue collar jobs seem like a second rate career and not worthy to pursue. Truth of the matter is this America was and is built on the backs of the blue collar worker without him there would be no white collar jobs. We need to take pride in our work and our industry. We have a Long road ahead of us to change the hearts and minds of a nation but its one worth taking.

my $.02

KC_Jones

a_good_plumber_corp said:

You can also thank our wonderful education system. The New York City school system omitted shop classes altogether. They have a few specialty schools where they send the non academic or uncooperative students. This way they are out of the main stream. When I went to school here we had wood shop, metal shop, automotive shop and housekeeping for the girls. The message they send to today's students is go to college or tough, figure it out yourself. It's sad i can't get anyone with a half a brain and a good attitude to work.
Warren S.

I am guessing this is a localized issue. All the ones in my area are thriving. The one my kids could go to (if they choose to) is actually almost as hard to get into as a college. All kinds of entrance exams and a paper needs written etc. They won't just take any idiot. To a certain extent it's a prestigious school as many used to be. In my grandfathers day he went to Baltimore Polytechnic Institute which was not a trade school, but a specialty engineering type high school. It isn't what is used to be sad to say. @Steamhead should be familiar with that one. As far as the above mention of child labor laws, HUH? My employer regularly has age 15 and up interns working in our shop during the summer. Yes there are laws to protect them from "overwork", but they all work 40 hour weeks. They need a work permit, but other than that it hasn't been an issue for us. I personally know several of these kids as they are my friends kids. It's been a great experience for all involved. OH and for the record he did all the stuff you stated he couldn't. Again maybe its a regional thing.

Charlie from wmass

In Massachusetts it is now 5 years apprenticeship before you can sit the journeyman exam.

vvzz

Charlie from wmass said:

In Massachusetts it is now 5 years apprenticeship before you can sit the journeyman exam.

Even worse. I think those kind of laws are doing a huge disservice to your industry.

Charlie from wmass

I disagree. I think expecting a full and proper training period is a move to elevate the quality of the tradesmen. I have yet to meet a person who had what it takes to work unsupervised after 3 years. That said deciding to be a plumber at 35 or older is not a good idea to me. How many people start medical school at 35 or 40?

SWEI

Charlie from wmass said:

How many people start medical school at 35 or 40?

On a mathematical basis, not that many -- though there do seem to be some real standouts who did...

rabbit

Wow. Your stories were hilarious but sad. They clearly illustrate the decline of simple understanding of our society. I don't mean us ,but far too many other folks. If it's any consolation, I've had similar incidents and I responded to those situations as I did as I did reading your accounts, I just laughed and shook my head. Thank goodness for regular people like you and me who can laugh instead of getting irritated.

DanHolohan

Life's too short to get irritated, Rabbit. Thanks.

vvzz

Charlie from wmass said:

I disagree. I think expecting a full and proper training period is a move to elevate the quality of the tradesmen. I have yet to meet a person who had what it takes to work unsupervised after 3 years. That said deciding to be a plumber at 35 or older is not a good idea to me. How many people start medical school at 35 or 40?

3, 4 or 5 years of mandatory apprenticeship doesn't really guarantee quality training. Someone could be just snaking drains for all those years. I don't disagree that hands on training is very important, but this really limits the pool of available plumbers and also drives the cost up.

Charlie from wmass

There is also 5 years of classroom training that you take at the same time. In the end you also have to pass a fairly rigorous test, granted none of the test is hands on but there are questions from the code and from what you should be learning on the practical end. As for driving up the cost I pay my vehicle mechanics more an hour then I charge my customers, but they are all well trained so the per job cost is lower even if the hourly rate is higher than the other mechanics in my area.

njtommy

Not all of us are Plumbers for the love of God !!!! Lol

I did a 5 year apprenticeship for HVACR aka service guys for UA Local 322 in NJ. I'm still in the union and I bust my rear end every day for the company I have been with for 7 years now. The last company I was with them for 4 years and decided to split ways to do more things.

I think I fall into the unhirable category for a normal 9-5 paper cut kinda of guy. I'm a scatter brain first off. Can't spell my way out of a paper bag and hate paper work. I could never sit behind a desk all day or in front of a computer. I'm not rat race kind of guy.
I like to say I'm on Tommy Time.

With this trade it keeps my mind engaged and stopping from day dreaming like I did through out high school. My wife still tells me " sometimes I don't know how you made it though high school".

Charlie from wmass

I know Tommy, but that is okay, I like you anyways.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

I know Tommy, but that is okay, I like you anyways.

You already know if I was able to go into a field it would be refrigeration without a doubt.

I have no interest in laying under someone's kitchen sink, at all.

Charlie from wmass

Not even your own , I get it.

njtommy

Lol thanks guys.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

Not even your own , I get it.

I worked on my own, and that's all I'm doing.
It better out last me.

I should start a business, "Phase Change HVAC" , we only work on phase change systems. Refrigeration and steam heat.

Matt_67

I don't know Chris - kitchen sink or greasy restaurant floor? Unless you specialize in low temp chambers or something special!

ChrisJ

Matt said:

I don't know Chris - kitchen sink or greasy restaurant floor? Unless you specialize in low temp chambers or something special!

So there's no sinks in a restaurant?
Or grease traps for that matter?

njtommy

@ChrisJ I hate doing refrigeration work. Every thing is always an emergency and nobody takes care of the equipment. On top of that theirs never any room to work inside the box they always over load them.

Matt_67

Worked on a project where they 'discovered' a grease trap in a concrete tunnel. Nobody in the facility knew what it was - pretty close to the worst smell ever. You're right - I would rather work on a cooler in a restaurant than that.

KC_Jones

Matt said:

- pretty close to the worst smell ever.

Ever shoveled out the collection trough under an automatic car wash? I think it would give that some stiff competition. I worked in a restaurant for a few years and I can honestly say the car wash was worse than any grease trap I ever cleaned out. Almost nothing can turn my stomach and my employers always found that out...quickly so I always got these wonderful jobs to do. Probably what drove me to an office position...I can still smell that tunnel......

ChrisJ

njtommy said:

@ChrisJ I hate doing refrigeration work. Every thing is always an emergency and nobody takes care of the equipment. On top of that theirs never any room to work inside the box they always over load them.

That's why I only do it as a hobby.
It's nice that way,well, other then being terrified of destroying an antique.

Overall, it's enjoyable though. A whole lot better than working in someone's 140F attic!

BobC

I never had the pleasure of cleaning out a grease trap, maybe it was because of what I saw. One day when I was on KP I saw the mess Sgt putting a side of beef in his trunk AND he knew I saw him. Any time I was on KP after that things were just fine.

At another post i was on the roster for KP the day before I got my E5 rank. My section boss appealed the KP but the CO was adamant that I had to serve. I pulled the duty but a year later that same CO was on the east coast of Korea at the end of one of my microwave shots, can you guess who's phone just never seemed to work?

payback can be a ****

Bob

neilc

why and what about the car wash trench is worse than a grease trap ?

KC_Jones

Think about all the stuff that can accumulate on a car. Dead animals and parts, excrement and all sorts of other biological matter. It (if you saw the muck) was like looking at an above ground sewer. We had to use shovels and 5 gallon buckets to clean it out. It was disgusting.